Really discouraged about scanning with my Epson v500 - color/grain problems.

Holly K · Dec 3, 2012

I bought an Epson v500 almost two years ago because I wanted to have more control over how my negatives came out by scanning them myself. I use the Epson Scan software.

I've always used it on Professional setting at 6400dpi (I know that's unnecessarily high. Someone in another forum said that might be the problem?), with the Thumbnail box checked, and with automatic exposure adjustment. I am somewhat satisfied with these results but I always noticed that there was a lot more grain than what I see in other peoples' pictures (even people with the exact same camera/film/scanner, such as this picture: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sealegs...ts/4946605824/). So recently I finally got fed up with what I perceieved as an unusual amount of grain so I started experiementing with different settings on my camera. Lo and behold, I found out what a different experience it is when you DON'T check the Thumbnail. Mostly it is a lot more work, but I noticed that the grain is a lot finer and the picture's texture is just smoother overall.
Example:
With thumbnail checked: http://i46.tinypic.com/mimp1.jpg
Without thumbnail checked: http://i47.tinypic.com/14436l0.jpg

So, at first I got excited, but there was another problem - the colors are way off, as you can see. I know the process should be: select inside the picture and press the auto exposure, and then increase the selection if you want to get the black borders (which I do). But I always end up with bad colors, no matter what.
Example:
With thumbnail: http://i49.tinypic.com/2l9ii4p.jpg
With thumbnail (post-processed in Lightroom): http://i45.tinypic.com/11t1pg2.jpg
Without thumbnail: http://i50.tinypic.com/2yn5xna.jpg
Without thumbnail (post-processed in Lightroom): http://i45.tinypic.com/ivbneb.jpg

As you can see, even if a post-process the crap out of the "without thumbnail" image, it still doesn't look quite right, color-wise.

So, my question is, what is your procedure for scanning? Any advice you could offer I would be really grateful for, I am very lost and discouraged about scanning my own negatives... it seems that no matter what I do, I can't get them to both have less grain and correct colors.

ParkerSmithPhoto · Dec 3, 2012

You will be much happier using VueScan than the Epson software. It's a real bargain, too.

6400dpi for 35mm is overkill. Even with a dedicated film scanner, at that level you are scanning "noise" and not any additional detail. With my Epson (older model, not even as good as the V500) and 400 speed, medium format B&W film, I usually scan around 1800 to 2000, maxing out at 2400 ppi for very fine grain B&W like TMAX400. Those numbers will give you a very nice file around 16". The point is to scan to a reasonable level based on the grain of the film and the quality of the scanner. Then you can use Photoshop to inflate the file if you need.

Color negative is a tricky bit of work, but using VueScan and some time and patience and experience, you'll get the hang of it.

ParkerSmithPhoto · Dec 3, 2012

Also, you'll probably find that your grain structure is improved considerably by using VueScan. The Epson software really stinks up the grain.

Holly K · Dec 3, 2012

Thank you very much! That is good to know.

Unfortunately, I really can't afford Photoshop.

I wish VueScan wasn't so expensive as well. It's tough because I only have so much free money to spend, so I don't know whether to invest in expensive software, or a better scanner, or what.

Does anyone have suggestions about my colors issue?

tkamiya · Dec 3, 2012

Holly,

You don't really need a full Photoshop. You can do A LOT with Photoshop Element.

As I said in PM, your color looks pretty good to me. Are you looking at it on a calibrated monitor? To really get it to look right, you'll need to shoot a standard (like a gray card) and set your whitepoint accordingly. Again, the one I looked at, the last image, looks good.

Holly K · Dec 4, 2012

Thank you, I really appreciated your PM. And okay, I will try doing that. Thank you!

artobest · Dec 5, 2012

Holly, you don't need Photoshop or Photoshop Elements, since you have Lightroom. That will do everything you need. Your scans are looking OK to me, however I don't think you should be using automatic exposure. Scanning software tends to clip shadows and highlights quite badly when you give it free reign. I always scan as positive (regardless of whether it is a transparency or negative film) and set the black and white points for each channel individually. This gives me a pretty good starting point for tweaking in Lightroom or Photoshop. (Of course, if it is a negative, you will need to invert your file after scanning.)

Holly K · Dec 5, 2012

Oh, that's quite helpful, thank you. How exactly do you go about setting the white and black points, using the histogram? The only problem I have is that often, my preview image does not match the scanned image.

Halka · Dec 5, 2012

On a small tangent, could anyone upload a single BW negative frame scanned as a positive? I'd like to try my hand at some adjustments, I just don't have a scanner yet and would like to, er, train for a bit.

artobest · Dec 6, 2012

@Holly, you set the black and white points in the levels dialogue. Make sure you leave enough headroom that you don't clip either highlights or shadows. Did you get a copy of Silverfast with your machine? If so, you can try scanning with that - it has a useful function that shows the lightest and darkest points in the image (after adjustments), which helps prevent clipping.

@Stone, rest assured Silverfast does work superbly with the V750, with plenty of options for exposure adjustment. Not sure what's wrong with yours if it won't let you set up your scan - perhaps you have a faulty installation?

StoneNYC · Dec 6, 2012

artobest said:
@Holly, you set the black and white points in the levels dialogue. Make sure you leave enough headroom that you don't clip either highlights or shadows. Did you get a copy of Silverfast with your machine? If so, you can try scanning with that - it has a useful function that shows the lightest and darkest points in the image (after adjustments), which helps prevent clipping.

@Stone, rest assured Silverfast does work superbly with the V750, with plenty of options for exposure adjustment. Not sure what's wrong with yours if it won't let you set up your scan - perhaps you have a faulty installation?

I think I just don't understand it, it just seems like they went through great effort to make things difficult to do easily... Haha,

I need a class, it took me an hour to make that black scan because I didn't know you had to start with the "workflow" button instead of the "prescan" button which to me would have been the first thing you do, but it forces you to follow their workflow system, it's kind of irritating...

I still can't figure out why I can or can't move the levers and buttons, sometimes they work and sometimes they don't, and it doesn't seem to have any rhyme or reason to when they do or don't.

I just click around and then go back to the option I really want until it starts letting me move stuff, but I still don't know why the image is so dark...

~Stone

The Noteworthy Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

chuck94022 · Dec 6, 2012

Stone,

My guess is you scanned a slide in 48 bit mode, meaning you have 16 bits per channel, 48 bits per pixel. You are seeing Preview attempt to display that, but it does not convert to 24 bit color in the way you expect. So it all looks dark.

48 bit mode is intended to go directly into a photo editor, like PhotoShop, for further processing. From there, you use all those bits to create a balanced image, and then output the result as a jpeg if you want to show it on the screen, or whatever works for you if you want to print it.

chuck94022 · Dec 6, 2012

Oh, and SilverFast calls that HDR mode I believe. They sort of muddy up what is going on in an attempt to simplify their interface. Takes some time to get a handle on what exactly they are doing with your image...

chuck94022 · Dec 6, 2012

One more thing: I don't use Workflow mode. I set everything by hand in SilverFast, but you should read the user guide carefully to understand what the features do. It can be very confusing. VueScan tends to do what you expect more readily, but if you thought SilverFast had a bad user interface, you haven't lived until you try the interface disaster that is VueScan. But VueScan is more of a power tool.

chuck94022 · Dec 6, 2012

Sorry to keep posting... I'm pretty sure you are in "HDR" or 48 bit mode. The reason you can't adjust anything is that in that mode, the software is dumping full, raw, scanner values to the output, with no option to tweak. If you want to tweak, you have to select "48 -> 24" mode. Then you can do your adjustments (curves, etc.) right in SilverFast, and output an image that you like. If you want to skip doing much work in PhotoShop, you can go that route. But if you want to do most of your editing in another tool, you should just dump the raw scanner data in the HDR mode, and use the (better) tools offered by the dedicated photo editors.

StoneNYC · Dec 6, 2012

OH!!!!

Yes I figured 48 bit would be better...

Strange that the "RAW" data is dark... Hmm I do everything in Lightroom 4... Will that be sufficient?

I wanted to get the most accurate scan to the way the image looks against light box wothout much effort but also be highest quality for what the epson v750 is actually capable of (vs their listed PPI) so anyone know and can tell me?

I don't even know what 48 or 24 or 12 or 8 bit means...

~Stone

The Noteworthy Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

StoneNYC · Dec 6, 2012

So before I go crazy on scanning, are you SURE the super dark image is normal? I mean I had trouble even seeing some images to select.

What's the difference? Will I lose quality by choosing a lower bit? I'm currently scanning Kodachrome...

~Stone

The Noteworthy Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

removed account4 · Dec 6, 2012

parkersmithphoto said:
Also, you'll probably find that your grain structure is improved considerably by using VueScan. The Epson software really stinks up the grain.

hey there

you really think epson scan software is that bad ?
while i have vuescan i stopped using it a while back
and use epson scan full time. not sure i have noticed much of a difference
aside from vue scan's having a million of film settings ... i kind of liked dialing in my film
its been a good 4 maybe 5 years, maybe things are different between the versions i have ?

john

StoneNYC · Dec 6, 2012

jnanian said:
hey there

you really think epson scan software is that bad ?
while i have vuescan i stopped using it a while back
and use epson scan full time. not sure i have noticed much of a difference
aside from vue scan's having a million of film settings ... i kind of liked dialing in my film
its been a good 4 maybe 5 years, maybe things are different between the versions i have ?

john

Well everyone keeps telling me the epson scan doesn't do a good job, I don't know if there's something the other scan software would boost on the image quality?

I do like the film type options if they worked.

Still working to figure it out

I wish they let you adjust the plane height of the actual lens so you could focus it perfectly, I can't imagine why that's not a standard scanner feature.

~Stone

The Noteworthy Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

tkamiya · Dec 6, 2012

Sorry, Stone.... Please take it over to APUG. We don't talk film here. ewwwwwwwwwww (hehehe)

StoneNYC · Dec 6, 2012

tkamiya said:
Sorry, Stone.... Please take it over to APUG. We don't talk film here. ewwwwwwwwwww (hehehe)

Oi....

~Stone

The Noteworthy Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

glhs116 · Dec 6, 2012

Stone, if you want to adjust the film height just shim the holder. If you are not having a specific problem with the Epson software use it. I bet it lets you do everything you want to and I'm sure it is easier to use.

Sam

chuck94022 · Dec 7, 2012

Stone, a dark image from a 48 bit scan is very normal. The output is not intended for viewing, but for editing. Until you understand this, you might want to just scan for a usable image in the scanner. It is a starting point. There is a book available on using VueScan on Amazon called The VueScan Bible, by Sascha Steinhoff. If you want to use that software, this is a good book to start with.

Agree with Sam about shimming, to get you started. Problem is knowing whether you need to go up or down. But shimming is a cheap way to experiment. The betterscanning.com holders are the best bet of course, but you can save some money by starting with shims.

However, before you do any of that, I suggest you learn the process of scanning itself. Then you can optimize image quality in the way that seems best for you - shimming, buying different holders, deciding to wet mount, etc.

StoneNYC · Dec 7, 2012

chuck94022 said:
Stone, a dark image from a 48 bit scan is very normal. The output is not intended for viewing, but for editing. Until you understand this, you might want to just scan for a usable image in the scanner. It is a starting point. There is a book available on using VueScan on Amazon called The VueScan Bible, by Sascha Steinhoff. If you want to use that software, this is a good book to start with.

Agree with Sam about shimming, to get you started. Problem is knowing whether you need to go up or down. But shimming is a cheap way to experiment. The betterscanning.com holders are the best bet of course, but you can save some money by starting with shims.

However, before you do any of that, I suggest you learn the process of scanning itself. Then you can optimize image quality in the way that seems best for you - shimming, buying different holders, deciding to wet mount, etc.

Thanks both of you.

Well, but when I import it to Lightroom won't the sliders be zeroed out? So bringing up the exposure level won't cause issues with highlights and low's etc?

Just understanding, I don't mind adjusting levels in post, in fact I prefer it, I just also don't want to lose information. Or especially when scanning e-6 / Kodachrome I want the image to match exactly with the shot, seems like its Always off from what my eye sees when I look at the slide.

~Stone

The Noteworthy Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

chuck94022 · Dec 7, 2012

Pull it into LR (I use Aperture and Photoshop, not LR) and see what you get. You should have no problem with it. You will have *all* the scanner data to work with. Sure you will have to adjust levels, but you have a lot of information to work with.

Really discouraged about scanning with my Epson v500 - color/grain problems.

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