Reality so Subtle 6×17 VS Zero612F VS Vermeer 6x17

marciofs · Dec 6, 2014

I can't decide between this two cameras.

Reality so Subtle 6×17 has curved plan and 2 pins which I think is a cleaver thing.

Zero612F shoot multiple frames sizes and many says they have the nicest pins. But it doesn't not 6x17 that I am attracted the most. And I don't know if it is curved plan.

vermeer 6x17 panoramic curved plan but only 1 pin.

But 2 pins can make a big difference?

gone · Dec 6, 2014

If the samples I'm seeing on the web are any indication, the shots from these two cameras are very different. The Vermeer seems to have a more traditional pinhole way of imaging, while the Reality seems to make images very similar to a camera w/ a real lens. Very sharp. Here's what I see.

Dead Link Removed

https://aupremierplan.fr/custom-cameras/6x17-panoramic-pinhole/

marciofs · Dec 6, 2014

momus said:
If the samples I'm seeing on the web are any indication, the shots from these two cameras are very different. The Vermeer seems to have a more traditional pinhole way of imaging, while the Reality seems to make images very similar to a camera w/ a real lens. Very sharp. Here's what I see.

Dead Link Removed

https://aupremierplan.fr/custom-cameras/6x17-panoramic-pinhole/

Good point.
I guess Reality will be the option then.

gone · Dec 6, 2014

Well, it seems that way, but one never knows how much a web image has been manipulated. What makes it even harder to judge is that the Vermeer photos are from actual users of the camera, while the Reality samples are from the maker's own website. Of course, the latter will post the best shots that could be taken w/ the camera. For the money he wants for the Reality, and if the images are what you could really expect to get if you were diligent, it's a sweet deal. Has my interest, I tell you that.

Oops, these samples from flickr tell the tale. When you look at shots that other people took w/ the Reality So Subtle camera, they look pinholeish. When you look at the shots that the manufacturer took, they look decidedly more sharp. I am pretty sure that they had a lot of post processing to give such sharpness.

https://www.flickr.com/search/?q=reality+so+subtle+6x17

scheimfluger_77 · Dec 6, 2014

You probably won't go wrong with either one. Unless you have a 5x7 enlarger you can only do contacts with the Reality. At 13.5cm the Vermeer negative would crop a little bit on a 4x5 enlarger, but doable.

marciofs · Dec 6, 2014

momus said:
Well, it seems that way, but one never knows how much a web image has been manipulated. What makes it even harder to judge is that the Vermeer photos are from actual users of the camera, while the Reality samples are from the maker's own website. Of course, the latter will post the best shots that could be taken w/ the camera. For the money he wants for the Reality, and if the images are what you could really expect to get if you were diligent, it's a sweet deal. Has my interest, I tell you that.

Oops, these samples from flickr tell the tale. When you look at shots that other people took w/ the Reality So Subtle camera, they look pinholeish. When you look at the shots that the manufacturer took, they look decidedly more sharp. I am pretty sure that they had a lot of post processing to give such sharpness.

https://www.flickr.com/search/?q=reality+so+subtle+6x17

The results as still very good.

scheimfluger_77 said:
You probably won't go wrong with either one. Unless you have a 5x7 enlarger you can only do contacts with the Reality. At 13.5cm the Vermeer negative would crop a little bit on a 4x5 enlarger, but doable.

The plan is only to contact print anyway. My enlarger doesn't holder frames bigger than 6x8 (meybe 6x9) middle format. I am used to do contact prints with 6x7 and even with 6x4.5. Very small prints they look charming for my taste, specially with a nice creame mounting and chunk black frame. I am sure 6x17 contact prints will look even nicer.

But Vermeer camera has only one pin while Reality has 2 pins. Does it really make a considerable difference?

PS. I plan to get a Obscura Camera 4x5 (Ilford) later on.

John Koehrer · Dec 6, 2014

The two pinholes give a different perspective without tilting the camera. It would have been helpful if they had used a similar scene for one example set but the comparison between the bridge and view of the house is decent. and gives some idea.

marciofs · Dec 7, 2014

Thank you. It will be my Christmas gift.

TheToadMen · Dec 7, 2014

I can tell you that the 6x17 cm is a very nice format. I've got a Natasha 6x17 wooden pinhole camera from
https://www.facebook.com/NatashaPinholeCamera

Here is an example, shot on expired Fuji Velvia 50 (Fuji RVP):

marciofs · Dec 7, 2014

Beautiful @TheToadMen

It will be my first panoramic camera and photographs, after get the Reality on my hands.

I was comparing and 6x17 has something more attractive and special that 6x12 doesn't have. I am excited to start shooting it.

TheToadMen · Dec 8, 2014

marciofs said:
Beautiful @TheToadMen

It will be my first panoramic camera and photographs, after get the Reality on my hands.

I was comparing and 6x17 has something more attractive and special that 6x12 doesn't have. I am excited to start shooting it.

You're quite right and you can always crop (but you won't).

Keep us posted please.

Bert from Holland
http://thetoadmen.blogspot.nl

WayneStevenson · Dec 9, 2014

What are those selling for?

rince · Dec 10, 2014

Hi,

I own a Zero Image 6x9 and the 6x17 'Reallity so subtle'. I like the Zero Image, but absolutely love the 6x17 from James Guerin. The build quality is great and I like having the two pinholes in different heights of the frame. It really does make a big difference. Sure it is a little beefier and heavier, but not to the point it becomes a hazzle to carry. I can only speak very highly of the 6x17, even though loading it without fogging my film took me some practice Build quality is outstanding!

andreios · Dec 10, 2014

I am having similar dilemma, I think two pinholes are a great advantage, but even despite that I am veering towards Vermeer, because from the video / images on the web the loading seems to be much easier... Maybe some of the owners could chime in - is it possible to load the Reality-so-subtle without problems in winter with cold fingers?

marciofs · Dec 10, 2014

Because they don't have Reality 6x17 in stock right now I will buy it later (January). Instead I bought an Ilford Obscura, which I was planning to get after Reality. So I did the other way round.

I almost got Zero 6x12 (mult format) which I could use for portraits and landscapes. But looking ate images in the internet I really didn't like the vignette at 6x12. And I didn't get Vermeer 6x17 instead because I didn't like the distortion from the single pinhole.

My plan is to have the Obscura 4x5in for portraits and 6x17 Reality for landscapes and cityscapes.

Xmas · Dec 10, 2014

TheToadMen said:
I can tell you that the 6x17 cm is a very nice format. I've got a Natasha 6x17 wooden pinhole camera from
https://www.facebook.com/NatashaPinholeCamera

Here is an example, shot on expired Fuji Velvia 50 (Fuji RVP):

nice!
When I was in the lomo shop buying 110 film...

http://microsites.lomography.com/belair/

fran · Dec 12, 2014

I got my reality 6x17 last week, I've only put a few rolls through it so far. Its a joy to use. Loading the film is tricky the first time you do it, but even by the second roll its handy enough. I didn't have any film fogging problems. As to doing it in the cold - I'd say it would be difficult with gloves on for example. I bought it (well my SO did as xmas pressie) because of the 2 pinholes. In use, these are very good - you can set the camera level so that you get a straight horizon, but then put your horizon at 1/3 or 2/3 as you want.

The images I've scanned so far are much sharper than I expected, with just a little fall off at either edge. Scanning was a challenge (using a v500). I found I had to tape the neg to the platten to get a smooth scan. I plan to contact print mine.

Anyway, I think its well worth the money, its a lovely bit of kit, seems well thought out with useful markings etc.

fran

no connection to the seller other than him being a countryman of mine in exile.

flickr links to the camera in action and neg scans.

https://flic.kr/p/pomudR

https://flic.kr/p/q3NDNQ

https://flic.kr/p/qiC4xS

andreios · Dec 12, 2014

THanks for the "report"... Sound's tempting. How is the new material? I was saddened when I read these are no longer made of wood..

Jonathan Van Matre · Dec 12, 2014

I have one of the 6x17s on order. First time I've bought a full pinhole camera instead of merely the aperture, aperture/shutter, or a body cap.

The dual pinholes are the primary selling point, plus in general it strikes me as one of the more thoughtfully designed pinhole cameras from a user's perspective.

Why more pinhole cameras don't come with multiple pinholes is a mystery to me. I only need one on my pinhole-ified Crown Graphic since it has movements, but for a box camera having either a movable pinhole or multiple pinholes it is a major boost in flexibility.

europanorama · Dec 29, 2014

pins for changing horizont-position

marciofs said:
The results as still very good.

The plan is only to contact print anyway. My enlarger doesn't holder frames bigger than 6x8 (meybe 6x9) middle format. I am used to do contact prints with 6x7 and even with 6x4.5. Very small prints they look charming for my taste, specially with a nice creame mounting and chunk black frame. I am sure 6x17 contact prints will look even nicer.

But Vermeer camera has only one pin while Reality has 2 pins. Does it really make a considerable difference?

PS. I plan to get a Obscura Camera 4x5 (Ilford) later on.

The pins are to move the horizon upwards or downwards. so in reality center horizon is non-existant except when shooting up and down-images seperately and stitching them. if both at the same time there will be overlapping.

removedacct1 · Dec 29, 2014

marciofs said:
Because they don't have Reality 6x17 in stock right now I will buy it later (January). Instead I bought an Ilford Obscura, which I was planning to get after Reality. So I did the other way round.

I almost got Zero 6x12 (mult format) which I could use for portraits and landscapes. But looking ate images in the internet I really didn't like the vignette at 6x12. And I didn't get Vermeer 6x17 instead because I didn't like the distortion from the single pinhole.

My plan is to have the Obscura 4x5in for portraits and 6x17 Reality for landscapes and cityscapes.

I have been using a Vermeer 6x17 for about two years now and I like it a lot. It's more "home made" in its design and engineering than some cameras, but it's functionality and features outweigh its less polished look, if you know what I mean. I would definitely recommend the camera for anyone wanting to get into curved-plane panoramic pinhole image-making.
an example image taken with the Vermeer 6x17, no cropping:

Other photos from my Vermeer Flickr album: https://www.flickr.com/photos/paulbarden/sets/72157633878596251/

marciofs · Dec 29, 2014

paulbarden said:
I have been using a Vermeer 6x17 for about two years now and I like it a lot. It's more "home made" in its design and engineering than some cameras, but it's functionality and features outweigh its less polished look, if you know what I mean. I would definitely recommend the camera for anyone wanting to get into curved-plane panoramic pinhole image-making.
an example image taken with the Vermeer 6x17, no cropping:

Other photos from my Vermeer Flickr album: https://www.flickr.com/photos/paulbarden/sets/72157633878596251/

Nice!
Your photos are very popular on Google. I have often seen them when searching for images from Vermeer 6x17.

removedacct1 · Dec 29, 2014

marciofs said:
Nice!
Your photos are very popular on Google. I have often seen them when searching for images from Vermeer 6x17.

Thank you Marcio, I appreciate that

I would like to point out that the Vermeer 6x17 has the great advantage that - unlike the Zero Image 6x12 - there is no vignette get at the outer edges nor is there any significant light drop off side-to-side, so you get a negative that is sharp and evenly exposed throughout. That is a definite advantage for me, and that's why I chose it over the Zero 6x12.

marciofs · Dec 29, 2014

Zero's cameras over 6X6 doesn't appeal to me for this exactly same reason, vignettes.
Vignettes can be charming on 6x7 maybe but over it the vignettes are to strong. On panoramic shots vignettes get about half of the image.

On the other hand they are prized for their sharp images which I assume they get with smaller pins which accentuate vignettes, specially on no curved plan frames.

Vignettes are not my taste eather so I have passed panoramic cameras from Zero's.

Vermeer's panoramic camera have one pin. which I supose creates curved horizons when they are not near the center of the frame.

Reality's camera has tow pins which can make horizons plan when on the top 1/3 or bottom 1/3 of the frame, but I wonder how the horizon line look like when placed on the meddle of the frame, since it doesn't have a pinhole on the centre/middle of the camera.

Since I am still playing with Ilford Obscura I bought recemtly, I still have time to make my mind among the two of them (Vermeer and Reality), which I plan to buy later January.

removedacct1 · Dec 29, 2014

marciofs said:
Vermeer's panoramic camera have one pin. which I suppose creates curved horizons when they are not near the center of the frame.

Márcio,
Thats very true, but I don't mind the curved horizon effect in most cases - and in fact - I chose the Vermeer for its ability to render horizon lines as curves when I wanted to do that. If you aim the camera straight (not aimed up, not aimed down), then you will get no horizon bending effect

In instances like this, I rather like the curving horizon line:

Reality so Subtle 6×17 VS Zero612F VS Vermeer 6x17

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