re-thinking my 8x10... (kind of a long rant)

[Foto Ludens]

Yeah, I'm having my doubts about my 8x10 set up...

I'm mostly a portrait guy (or whatever it is you call what I do when I'm traveling), but will do still lives to kill the boredom. Which is what I did with my 8x10. And it's pretty good too, may I add.

But last weekend me and a fellow APUGer (Peter Williams) went on a street portraiture session, and I struggled pretty bad. The whole process took a lot of effort, and the results are mediocre at best. I misfocused a lot, people moved after I focused, people moved during exposures, composing on the fly just didn't work that well...

Oh, hell, maybe it was a bad day, and that's all. It all FELT really good, after we got going. It was a fun day, and well worth the wasted film. Working with the 8x10 is pretty fun, but the results aren't better (in portraiture) than with a 6x6 slr. And with 6x6 I get more (and better) work done.

And right now I don't have a 6x6 slr, just two guess-focus folders (which I can't see myself using for what I miss doing). I really miss composing on a waist level finder, with a camera in my hand.

Moral of the story:

I think I'm going to sell my 8x10 gear (to another APUGer, if someone wants it) and buy a Bronica SQ kit or something similar from KEH.

Anyway, this was just a rant, and I just came out of a bad darkroom session (printing from the street portrait negs).

André

 

[nick mulder]

Street portrait 8x10 ?? - I wouldn't have thought it the right format at least for me go about that sort of carry on

8x10 huh ? I'm looking to move up in the world - what ya got ?

 

[Foto Ludens]

Hey man...

I agree, 8x10 street portrait... I was asking for trouble. I've seen photographer who do it extremely well, and I thought I could.

I have an Empire State camera, with a homemade (by me) front standard. Instead of only rise/fall, It has full movements limited only by the bellows. They are friction movements, with no center markings. The rear has the tilt/swing movements that came with it. The bellows are rough looking, but I haven't had any leaks (even with 30+minute exposures). I do have a habit of draping the darkcloth over the bellows, though.

This was a plate camera, and I have 4 plate holders that I use with APHS (Freestyle's ortho film) cut to size.
I also have one wooden film holder.

I have two barrel lenses:
A 305mm APO-Nikkor f/9 (to f/128) which I haven't run out of coverage with;
and a 6 1/2" (163mm) JML f/8 (to f/45) which covers at infinity and allows for some movements (but nothing too extreme - I've done tilts and fall with success and no vignetting). This lens is sharp right up to where the coverage ends (look at my gallery for an example).

I use the darkcloth as a "shutter" on these lenses...

I also have misc. tidbits like a dark piece of cloth, a velcro-on fresnell for the ground-glass, and a surveyor's tripod with a heavy duty head I made (tilts forwards and back, no other movement). I also have a homemade shutter for the APO-Nikkor, with 1/5, 1/25, and 1/50 speeds. However, as it's made of foam board and mat board, it's an indoor kind of thing (the wind took it off and tossed it around during my street portrait session).

BTW, I know that this is starting to sound like a classified add, but that's not my intention. It's more of an inventory at this point... if need be I'll post something in the classifieds.

I figure that by the time I've sold all this I can buy a descent 6x6 kit, right? All I want is a WLF, 80mm f/2.8 (preferably) and a 120 back. Nothing fancy... A TTL meter would be nice, but I really like WLF...

André

 

[jmdavis]

Yeah, I'm having my doubts about my 8x10 set up...

I'm mostly a portrait guy (or whatever it is you call what I do when I'm traveling), but will do still lives to kill the boredom. Which is what I did with my 8x10. And it's pretty good too, may I add.

But last weekend me and a fellow APUGer (Peter Williams) went on a street portraiture session, and I struggled pretty bad. The whole process took a lot of effort, and the results are mediocre at best. I misfocused a lot, people moved after I focused, people moved during exposures, composing on the fly just didn't work that well...

Oh, hell, maybe it was a bad day, and that's all. It all FELT really good, after we got going. It was a fun day, and well worth the wasted film. Working with the 8x10 is pretty fun, but the results aren't better (in portraiture) than with a 6x6 slr. And with 6x6 I get more (and better) work done.

And right now I don't have a 6x6 slr, just two guess-focus folders (which I can't see myself using for what I miss doing). I really miss composing on a waist level finder, with a camera in my hand.

Moral of the story:

I think I'm going to sell my 8x10 gear (to another APUGer, if someone wants it) and buy a Bronica SQ kit or something similar from KEH.

Anyway, this was just a rant, and I just came out of a bad darkroom session (printing from the street portrait negs).

André

Take a look at Nick Nixons stuff. I think that his classroom shots are the epitome of "the decisive moment" in 8x10. Maybe the problem is that you are still thinking like you are shooting MF. Shooting LF (whether 4x5, 5x7, or 8x10) is a different process and involves a different thought process as well.

If you are trying to shoot Street Portraits on the fly, chances are you are going to wind up disappointed. On the other hand, if you have a setup and wait for the people to come to you (a la Avedon) you have the potential to produce some amazingly detailed work that a 6x6 SLR cannot compare to. But,its up to you and your style.

Mike Davis

 

[removed account4]

hi andre

i know how frustrating it can be using a large format camera on the fly to make portraits - i have done it a lot with 4x5, and never with anything larger. the main thing have noticed ( at least with my own 4x5 experience shooting on the street or walking off the street into a shop/business/factory ) is there is a certain dance that one has to do that is different altogehter from the dance one does with smaller format cameras to take candid/random/street portraits. it is one of those things that takes practice, and the people that have done it, or do it very well make it look easy as pie. i am sure if you ask one of these people, they will tell you that they had problems too. i've been doing it for about 15 years, and i still have lots of trouble ... and i can't imagine doing it with a 8x10 camera with a shutterless lens and ortho film - yikes!

this guy http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0408/miller01.html
makes it look easy, he has people look like they are caught in the act, but all the photographs are staged.

good luck!!

-john

 

[Foto Ludens]

Jay and Mike,

Thank you both for your replies, (I read and took both in a very good way, BTW)

I agree with both of you; I'm still thinking of portraiture in an MF way.

I've become pretty descent at still lifes with LF, and its AMAZING stuff, in my opinion. The sharpness, tonality, and easy of use and framing are quite nice. It's much better to frame a still life on my 8x10 then on a TLR or a 35mm slr. I can look at it, tweak the table top (or whatever), look at it some more... In these cases judging the composition is quite easy. It's easier to slow down, I guess.

its shooting people that gets me. and its shooting people that I miss. My parents, grandmother, and brother are very understanding and cooperative (and encouraging), and they make portraiture work with 8x10 much easier. Shooting strangers is a whole different ball game. I need the subject's full cooperation and help when shooting 8x10; whereas 6x6 lets the subjects be more relaxed and natural. Being shutterless certainly makes matters worse, but simply having to put the film in before taking the shot is enough to "miss the moment", I guess.

Oh well, I know I'm never going to take the 8x10 on my trips, and I'm starting to think that what I really miss are my trips. :rolleyes: Having a 6x6 again won't solve my problems... I don't do documentary stuff over here (it never attracts me).

In the end, this is just a rant... thank you all for replying. I'm still thinking all this over, and your opinions do count.

I'm still going to shoot a lot more 8x10 before selling it, but I'm starting to think that it might be mostly still lives and landscapes. Or more formal portraiture. But it definately cannot be the same type of work I did on 6x6.

Thanks again,

André

 

[Foto Ludens]

John,

Thanks a lot, man. I think a lot of that rant had to do with just being frustrated in the darkroom today. I tend to blow things out of proportion every now and then (especially when its related to my photography)

I'm going to re-think this whole thing... I think you may have a point in your PM as well; press cameras might be of good help.

I'll keep all of this is mind.

A wise person once told me never to make a decision in extreme moods (be it too happy or too frustrated...). I don't remember who it was, but I listen to it quite often

take care, and thanks again

André

 

[Jorge]

Andre, it is not the camera it is you who is not used to work with this format. There are a few things you can do to make your street portaiture more efficient. For example, set up the camera focus, load the film on a specific spot and wait till something happens. You can choose a busy street corner, a soccer field, etc. If you are at a street corner and you see someone passing by that looks interesting just shout "hey" when they turn to look at you press the shutter.

It is also a good way to attract people and maybe ask them to pose for you. Some people will stop to ask you what you are doing, here is your chance, since you already have the camera focused and loaded on a spot just tell them "stand here" and press the shutter.

You cannot work with 8x10 the same way you work with MF, which I suspect is what you tried to do.

Dont give up just yet, give it another shot before you sell.....remember, practice makes perfect.

 

[Jeremy]

Andre, if you want another model I will come out and you can photograph me... would love to take some shots of you, too. It sounds like we could both use some more LF portraiture practice.

 

[photomc]

Andre, before you make up your mind...Please come over to the Amon Carter and see (face to face as it is) the Avedon American West portraits. This is not street work like you are used to, but kind of a hybrid style. I you are not blown away by this work then I will agree 8x10 may not be for you, but I really think once you work with the format you will find your way with it. Give it at least 6 months (I really think a full year) before you walk away from it. It's big, bulky, a PIA to set up...cost much more (yeah I know you can run through many rolls of 120 for the price of a box of 8x10 film)...but there is something very special about the feel when it does work.

No matter which way you decide to go, I know you will do well..Have seen enough of your work to know it will be good. But since I suck at "people" photography, I really admire you for trying it in LF.

 

[Jim Chinn]

8x10 or any LF format requires a totally different apporach from smaller formats. That approach is really about the change from making fairly candid shots to pictures that you must direct. As you know it requires you to pose the subject, explain the camera and the importance of maintianing subject to lens distance, the need for a possible long exposure, especially if you are using existing light and no flash (which I assume is the situation).

I suspect part of the difficulty may lie in being uncomfortable with directing strangers as opposed to family. This will become less of an issue the more you work with strangers. The other may be the need to work quicker when working with people. This also comes with practice.

 

[SuzanneR]

Andre... I will echo what a lot of others' have said. It's a totally different animal than MF.

With that sid, you might take a look at the work of Andrea Modica. She befriended a family when she taught in upstate New York, and ended up photographing them over a period of ten years. The resulting book, "Treadwell" is quite extraordinary. I think large format portratiure really lends itself to long term projects like that. It seems to require a sustained commitment.

There is a kind of "momentous" moment, when you pull the dark slide from a cut film camera, and release the shutter. Your relationship to the subject, and their relationship to the camera are different than with MF. You'll have to find your own answer, but I wouldn't be too hasty about the decision.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[c6h6o3]

On the Azo Forum, under 'Photography & Exposing Negatives' I started a thread called 'Question for Paula'. Her answer addresses many of the problems which have been discouraging you.

 

[waynecrider]

Just a mention that if you do indeed move to mf for portraits, there seems to be quite a few good deals on Mamiya RB's recently, and, having lugged that 8x10 around the 6x7 format would probably seem small. The other advantage is the back, and bellows for more macro stuff.... I tried 4x5 handheld for street people shooting, and although it was quite doeable, somehow the experience wasn't quite fluid and spontaneous enough for me. I'm now awaiting and considering the Badger Graphic bellows-less 4x5 they have coming the first of the year supposedly. Just other thoughts.

 

[David Brown]

Minority opinion

OK, I’m going with the distinct minority here!

First, Andre’, don’t get rid of your 8x10.

However,

…it may not be the tool for what you want to do in this instance.

Large format is a wonderful thing and there is nothing like it. That can be said for a number of things, however. Cameras are tools. I am a big believer in having the right tool for the job: whether we’re talking mechanics, woodworking, software, or photography. If you need a table saw, a chain saw ain’t gonna do it.

I stood in front of your camera not long ago; and just from that one experience, I would agree with you that a hand held, probably MF, would have suited what you were trying to do better. Maybe a press camera would have, too (as I think has already been suggested.)

Anyway, if you want to go out in the street and shoot candid portraits, and you think that roll film is the tool, it just might be.

Keep the 8x10. If you’re set on an SLR, get one. If you really think that a normal, 80mm lens will do by itself, try a TLR. Get an old YashicaMat for $100 or less and give it a go. You can always trade up!

Hey, let’s go shooting sometime and you can use one of my 6x6 cameras.

Also, if you started this thread strictly in a fit of frustration, then, well, nevermind.:rolleyes:

Cheers.

David

 

[Foto Ludens]

Holy crap, thank you all for the replies!

Having had a good night's sleep, I can say this:

I'm keeping the 8x10 for a few more boxes of APHS at least, and I might even buy a packard or something like it in the future, who knows. But anyway, the sort of portrait I'm used to taking (sort of spontaneous, though not candid) doesn't lend itself to LF that easily. I'll take my 6x6 folders with me next time I'm out shooting, and I'll see what happens.

The LF will stay for portrait experiments and still lifes (which will really make me work on design, which is good).

But I think that a fit of frustration takes the blame for this one, David .

Thanks again,

André

 

[avandesande]

I have had more fun shooting people with a TLR than any other camera. People don't even realize that you are taking a picture.

 

[Foto Ludens]

Thanks a lot for this link... The Azo Forum is now bookmarked. I'll have to look up Paula's portraits, though. I am familiar with hers and Michael's amazing landscapes/cityscapes, but not her portraits. I'm sure a quick google search will resolve that.

Anyway, I think I'm going to invest in a inexpensive TLR... I liked using one when I had it, and even a triplet lens would be more than satisfactory for the 9x9" prints I make out of my 6x6s... In fact, it would work out well for portraits...

Anyway, I'm going to stick to the LF thing, but it seems that I do need a good 6x6.

What does everyone think of the following sub- $60.00 TLRs two of my favorite used camera stores have in stock?

1) Zeiss, Ikoflex Ia w/75mm f3.5 Novar (great user) (9) $59

or

2) [font=ARIAL,VERDANA,HELVETICA,SANS-SERIF][size=-2] CIRO-FLEX (MODULE UNKNOWN) WITH 85 F3.5 WOLLENSAK WITH CASE $39.00[/size][/font]

The prices are pretty attractive for me (still trying to pay off last semester's tuition, you know )

André

On the Azo Forum, under 'Photography & Exposing Negatives' I started a thread called 'Question for Paula'. Her answer addresses many of the problems which have been discouraging you.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Look at Bruce Davidson's LF street work. One thing he said about shooting LF was that it lent an air of formality to the shooting situation. The subjects were cooperative, because the big camera seemed like a serious thing. Let them see how it works and look through the groundglass. Note that Davidson was usually shooting environmental portraits, and so does Nick Nixon, and in _High Plains Farm_, so does Paula Chamlee, so focus isn't quite as tight as it is if you're shooting close up and wide open.

If you're misfocusing, don't sell the camera--get a string. Tie one end to the tripod in a place where it will stay put, and put a knot in the other end. It's going to seem silly, so make it part of the game. Focus with the subject holding the string to the end of their nose. Close lens, stop down, set shutter speed, insert filmholder, pull slide, cock shutter, check focus with string, and when the expression is right, shoot, replace darkslide, and keep going. You don't need to check the groundglass for every shot.

 

[Peter Williams]

At the very least we had a great time, right? I think there were other elements at work during our shoot - wind, inexperience acosting strangers, maybe not enough planning...etc. It sounds like our other local APUGGERS are up for a street portrait outing. Let's all get out and try this a couple more times and find out for sure if you like it. I used the GX680 and I have some really crappy photos, too (although the one of the hot chic is pretty good IMHO ). I think next time we'll bring the portable background, an assortment of cameras, and take it from there. If we set up and mark a spot for the subjects to stand, possibly in a spot with brighter light, we can probably reduce the number of bad exposures.

 

[Foto Ludens]

Oh yeah, man.

The funny thing is that I'm not inexperienced acosting strangers... well, maybe here. In my last couple of trips to Brazil, it all came really easily...

At any rate, it seems that I just purchased a Bronica 6x6 system... and simoutaneously sold two prints. Some would call that a trade. But that existential gap in my medium format self will soon be closed, and I shall be happy again.

Anyway, whenever you guys want to do another APUG get together let me know. Maybe sometime after the 4th?

André