RB67 min shutter speed ona tripod without MLU?

[rayonline_nz]

It is commonly understood to have 1/focal length or 1/125 with a normal lens while hand-holding the camera. What is the suggested shutter speed on a tripod but without MLU, situations like portraits? Today, I was inside the conservatory and a few family shots it is winter here in New Zealand, I had with me 1/60 F5.6 or F8. Metered with a handheld light meter (incident meter). ISO 100 Fuji Acros 100, I don't have any faster film.


Cheers

 

[MattKing]

Whatever is appropriate in the circumstances.
I saw no degradation of image due to camera vibration on any of my tripod mounted shots at any shutter speed. This is with enlargements usually to 11" x 14", but sometimes larger.
These cameras are high volume, professional level workhorses, and tripod mounted portraits are completely within their wheelhouses.

 

[rayonline_nz]

Thanks for that I was just a bit concerned about the potential of mirror slap without MLU.

 

[MattKing]

Thanks for that I was just a bit concerned about the potential of mirror slap without MLU.

It has a lot more potential to be relevant with cameras that are trying to squeeze the operation of a focal plane shutter and a rapid return mirror into the process.
The RB67 is a tank. Think about how difficult it would be to get that tank to transmit vibration from the body to the film back or the lens/shutter.

 

[rayonline_nz]

Thanks. I did use a single cable release (!).

 

[MattKing]

With a good tripod and head,the geometry of the shutter release will let you get good results even without the cable release!

 

[Donald Qualls]

FWIW, I've used MLU on my RB67 with a single cable -- connected to the lens -- without concern. I use the body shutter release to prefire the mirror, wait a few seconds, then fire the lens shutter with the cable. Works fine, and makes me think the dual release cables were just to separate photographers from a few more dollars.

Beyond that, I couldn't say from experience how slow the shutter can be on a tripod without using MLU before it affects image sharpness. Obviously, the longer the lens, the shorter the shutter speed you can get away with, but as @MattKing pointed out, the RB67 is heavy and isn't trying to fire a focal plane shutter in the micro-instance after the mirror goes up -- even in normal operation, there's a delay of a few tens of milliseconds (don't know precisely, but I can see it by eye, so it has to be at least 10 msec), and if the foam pads on the mirror shutter are good, there shouldn't be much vibration from the mirror firing.

Might be an interesting use of a roll of cheap or expired film, to see just how slow you can go before motion blur starts to be an issue.

 

[Ian C]

I’ve always done it that way with my RZ67. No cumbersome two-stage cable is required. The same is true of my use of a bellows unit on a Nikon. I stop the lens down to its taking aperture, then fire the shutter. On the Nikon models equipped with the vetical-travel multibladed Copal SQ shutters, I use the self timer. No cable release at all is needed. That snaps the mirror into shooting position at the start of the 10-second countdown. By the time the shutter cycles, all mirror vibration has dampend to zero.

 

[AgX]

Thanks for that I was just a bit concerned about the potential of mirror slap without MLU.

Best way to find out is with a real scene or a test target under YOUR condition. Thus your sample of camera, your tripod on the typical ground, and your lens.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

I normally use a single cable release with MLU and just release the regular button by hand. However, I also have the twin cable release for my RB67. It has a surprising effect though when shooting people. When the shutter button is released first, the subjects think you fired the actual shutter and relax. They drop their forced smile. When that happens, I press the cable release a little harder and release the shutter in the lens capturing a more relaxed, natural and extemporaneous picture.

 

[ic-racer]

I remember an important shoot with my Rolleiflex SLX I got in 1986. You can't pre-release the shutter without the special electronic release (which I did not have at the time). 1/60th on a tripod showed blur. Decades later I have a 6008i and it is much better.

 

[Maris]

I actually have a spare Mamiya RB67 mirror damping module in hand now. It is a surprisingly complex arrangement of gears and spinning weights which, I venture, is why the RB67 stability at all shutter speeds is so good. Mamiya went to a lot of engineering trouble and their customers to some extra expense to get a shake free camera system. Has worked well for me, tripod or in hand, at all shutter speeds since last century; no mirror lock-up needed.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Surely there is a point below which MLU is a good idea -- but if Mamiya has pushed that point lower than most, good for them!

 

[flavio81]

I actually have a spare Mamiya RB67 mirror damping module in hand now. It is a surprisingly complex arrangement of gears and spinning weights which, I venture, is why the RB67 stability at all shutter speeds is so good. Mamiya went to a lot of engineering trouble and their customers to some extra expense to get a shake free camera system. Has worked well for me, tripod or in hand, at all shutter speeds since last century; no mirror lock-up needed.

Yes.

It's a centrifugal mirror speed governor.

 

[flavio81]

It is commonly understood to have 1/focal length or 1/125 with a normal lens while hand-holding the camera. What is the suggested shutter speed on a tripod but without MLU, situations like portraits? Today, I was inside the conservatory and a few family shots it is winter here in New Zealand, I had with me 1/60 F5.6 or F8. Metered with a handheld light meter (incident meter). ISO 100 Fuji Acros 100, I don't have any faster film.

I have achieved good quality results down to 1/4sec speed, handheld, with the RB67 pro-S. Even better with 1/8 or 1/15 sec. Do you think I have the stamina to carry a RB plus 2 lenses AND a tripod?! It better be a table-top tripod...

I think this is one of the best aspects of the RB and compensates for the relatively slow (i.e. f4.5) lenses on the system.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

It is commonly understood to have 1/focal length or 1/125 with a normal lens while hand-holding the camera. What is the suggested shutter speed on a tripod but without MLU, situations like portraits? Today, I was inside the conservatory and a few family shots it is winter here in New Zealand, I had with me 1/60 F5.6 or F8. Metered with a handheld light meter (incident meter). ISO 100 Fuji Acros 100, I don't have any faster film.


Cheers

"formula" you mentioned is as good as using BMI to figure whether one is obese or not, pretty useless, even more so in MF size cameras

For RB67? Mirror action is one of the smoothest of all cameras, no mater the format. Its heft also helps taking the shutter speed down quite a bit. But in the end a lot depends on individual as crazy things are possible with any camera.

For tripod shots I would not worry about camera shake at practically any speed and without MLU engaged. MLU was really put in for studio / advertising work were pin point sharpness was critical in product shots and RB was one of top choices for that kind of work when film was king/queen (don't want to offend anyone).

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

I always shoot my RB67 landscapes with MLU. It only takes another two seconds. Why take a chance? If Mamiya thought they didn't need it, why did they include the MLU switch in all their lenses?

I also read somewhere, not necessarily for the RB, that mirror slap vibration is worse at certain shutter speeds. Usually at the lower end like around 1/8 to 1 second. Faster seems to have no problem. And slower also no problem because the shutter is open so long. So you might think everything is OK when you check at one speed, let's say 1/60. But its becomes a problem at other speeds, let' say 1/4. I don't know if this is true for the RB.

 

[Neil Grant]

For RB67? Mirror action is one of the smoothest of all cameras, no mater the format. Its heft also helps taking the shutter speed down quite a bit. But in the end a lot depends on individual as crazy things are possible with any camera.

For tripod shots I would not worry about camera shake at practically any speed and without MLU engaged.[/QUOTE]
...i don't think that's quite right. Especially with a long lens like the 360mm, the combination takes a while to lose the (small but significant) vibrational energy that the moving mirror causes. Best to use MLU, then pause for a few seconds before triggering the shutter.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

For RB67? Mirror action is one of the smoothest of all cameras, no mater the format. Its heft also helps taking the shutter speed down quite a bit. But in the end a lot depends on individual as crazy things are possible with any camera.

For tripod shots I would not worry about camera shake at practically any speed and without MLU engaged.

...i don't think that's quite right. Especially with a long lens like the 360mm, the combination takes a while to lose the (small but significant) vibrational energy that the moving mirror causes. Best to use MLU, then pause for a few seconds before triggering the shutter.[/QUOTE]
+1

 

[Deleted member 88956]

For RB67? Mirror action is one of the smoothest of all cameras, no mater the format. Its heft also helps taking the shutter speed down quite a bit. But in the end a lot depends on individual as crazy things are possible with any camera.

For tripod shots I would not worry about camera shake at practically any speed and without MLU engaged.

...i don't think that's quite right. Especially with a long lens like the 360mm, the combination takes a while to lose the (small but significant) vibrational energy that the moving mirror causes. Best to use MLU, then pause for a few seconds before triggering the shutter.[/QUOTE]

I suppose mileage differs form one user to another. I have no sense of vibrations in my 2 RB Pro SD. Of the many MF SLR cameras I happened to own, none comes close to that same feeling. Once focal length increases everything makes a difference, including weather, temperature, humidity etc. all affecting detail recorded on film. I'm not advocating not to ever use MLU, but my experience places RB last in the line to think of it as a must in majority of shooting cases.

 

[Neil Grant]

I actually have a spare Mamiya RB67 mirror damping module in hand now. It is a surprisingly complex arrangement of gears and spinning weights which, I venture, is why the RB67 stability at all shutter speeds is so good. Mamiya went to a lot of engineering trouble and their customers to some extra expense to get a shake free camera system. Has worked well for me, tripod or in hand, at all shutter speeds since last century; no mirror lock-up needed.

... I think we'd all like to see it! Where is it located in the RB 67 in the body? Can you post a photo of it?

 

[Maris]

... I think we'd all like to see it! Where is it located in the RB 67 in the body? Can you post a photo of it?

From the Mamiya RB67 Service Manual.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

From the Mamiya RB67 Service Manual.

I other words not a miracle the way it feels ... for those who actually use it. When I first released the shutter on RB I thought something was not working right, too damn quiet in there. Expected some actual feedback from the body, especially given size of the mirror, radial distance it needs to travel and thinking of original Pentax 645, touted as one of the smoothest MF SLR in mirror dampening (which I agreed with at the time of its release, until I got the RB quite a few years later).

 

[Donald Qualls]

I will give this -- when I first got my RB67, I was surprised how smooth the mirror/shutter action was, but I just chalked it up to the non-instant mirror return. There'd be roughly twice the impulse (felt in the hands, not visible by the shutter) if the mirror returned as soon as the shutter was reclosed -- but there'd be no point in doing so, since the shutter will stay closed until cocked again.

I have a 35mm SLR (and older Praktica) with a mirror that returns only on advance, and my first SLR (Exa II) did the same. There's less felt movement, but it doesn't make any real difference in motion blur -- the return is after the shutter caps, after all. Apparently the RB was built with additional mechanics to help in this. Probably explains why I can hand hold it at reasonable speeds, even with the 250mm mounted.

 

[flavio81]

From the Mamiya RB67 Service Manual.

specifically RS2560

that one is the centrifugal governor