RA4 processing

[BMbikerider]

Has anyone have experience of using the Tetenal mini-lab kit of RA4 developer which comprises of 4 x 1 litre bottles of concentrate? Ever since I started colour printing which must be the better part of 25 years ago now I have always used Kodak Ektacolor RA4 20 litre kits. They have never ever let me down. They are becoming a little expensive now, but then out of the blue Tetenal have made available their 40 litre kits of RA4 concentrate which is cheaper than the Kodak version - at least less than 1/2 price.

My personal experience of these kits is not favourable. In fact I will never use them again. The kits consists of 4 x 1000ml bottles of concentrate which is diluted 1-9 for use. Well that is the theory. There is no mention of a starter chemical being necessary except on the multi language, very difficult to interpret A5 size sheet. Even then it is so complex you don't know what volume you have to add. It is only then it becomes clear that when mixing a new batch with a starter you only use half the quantity of developer. i.e.50ml per litre not 100

After thinking I had worked it out and being assured by Tetenal themselves that the starter needed is the same as the Kodak version, I went ahead and mixed my 1st 2 litres for my Nova processor. The 1st prints were quite yellow and thinking this was due to different filtration I upped the yellow. The Kodak filters suggested 20cc extra yellow. The image I was trying to print was visible but yellow - not grey as the original subject was

The next test strip showed no change, so I upped the filtration by a further 20 units and again there was no change. It was then I noticed that the rebates of the paper which had not been exposed were also yellow - a strong canary yellow!
I next tried a small sheet of unexposed paper and developed that for 45 seconds and put it through the stop bath and fixer.
Again it was bright yellow despite no exposure to light. That paper was Fuji.I then tried a bit of Kodak Endura and - you guessed it that too was bright yellow. There is no shading like a light streak from accidental exposure, just an all over yellow cast.

I spoke to the suppliers, and then following this, directly to Tetenal UK technical department and they could offer no explanation either. Finally I emptied the Nova washed it out just in case it was some sort of chemical contamination. Then going exactly by the verbal directions given by Tetenal, I mixed a new batch but after the temperature had stabilised the results were exactly the same.

I wondered if the bleach fix was the problem, but when I fixed an unexposed piece of Fuji paper, the paper cleared back to pure white so obviously that is not the problem. The RA4 developer chemicals were well within their date only being made in June 2017 so now I am absolutely out of ideas.

To save asking, the processor was at the correct temperature which was confirmed by two different thermometers and was at exactly 35c

Any thoughts on the subject?

 

[Photo Engineer]

Please post your prints.

Thanks.

PE

 

[pentaxuser]

My sympathies. I think I used a Tetenal RA4 kit way back when I did a bit of colour printing and I am sure I'd remember yellow in the margins. It's a head-scratcher alright. Especially worrying given that this was also on unexposed paper.

Just a wild shot in the dark here. I think you use a DUKA safelight. Might it be connected to this in anyway? Bulb on its way out so operating at the wrong wavelength, too bright?As PE said some shots might help.

pentaxuser

 

[BMbikerider]

The DUKA has a reasonably new bulb, yes they are still available, if you know where to go. (as are the complete light- new). It is set at about 1/6th of maximum brightness and is about 8 feet away from where I stand. The light is reflected off the ceiling so it is very indirect In addition all the work is done with the paper in my shadow thrown by the light. When I was using Kodak. I never had a problem.

I am having one more attempt this evening, this time using half the quantity of starter, in fact the same quantity I used to use with Kodak Ektacolor RA4 Developer.

 

[BMbikerider]

Right here we go.

1. The top left image is one I did tonight with a completely new mix of Tetenal developer but half the quantity of starter as I said in my last post. It is still predominantly yellow. The 3 coloured segments on the left side should in fact be pale pink! (Painted side of a building) Each of the test segments was 3 seconds. As can be seen, the rebate is yellow despite having not had any exposure.

2. The top right colour patch is a piece of Fuji Crystal archive which has had no exposure what so ever. This was in a solution with the Tetenal recommended quantity of Starter.

3. The bottom colour patch is a piece of Kodak Endura RA4 paper placed in a Patterson test strip printer and covered up with the 'fingers' and flashed with light to give the lines. Other than that there was no other exposure at all.

All three were developed for 45 seconds @ 35c Stop bath for 15 seconds and bleached for 45 second before rinsing.

The only difference between the three was the top left print had less starter than the other two and the developer and stop bath were in another NOVA processor to the ones done yesterday. This was done to eliminate any contamination of the chemical residue in the older and more heavily used 4 bath device.

What I can only deduce is, the Kodak starter which I was told by the Tetenal help desk was fully compatible with Tetenal products, when in fact it isn't. Or there is a problem with the concentrate I am using. When I quoted the batch number to Tetenal the date of manufacture was less than 6 months so what it actually is I am stumped to suggest a definitive reason.

The yellow filter in the enlarger is moving correctly and is constantly variable if I move the adjusting knob

 

[mnemosyne]

Tetenal "SLR" (the kit you used) means "super low rate" = replenishment rate is only half of a normal replenisher = concentrated stuff. Are you sure you added the necessary amount of water in addition to the starter? Replenisher + Starter + Water = tank solution

Could you post a scan of the A5 size mixing instructions and could you tell us exactly how you prepared your working solution?

 

[BMbikerider]

I have done as you asked the two scans, one of each side of the instruction sheet.

When I first encountered the problem I spoke to Tetenal and was told to ignore the front side of the sheet and use the instructions on the rear of the sheet, more specifically Option2 which is the lower section. My processor takes 2 litres of developer at one go, so I mixed it according to the instructions (Confirmed by Tetenal help desk) but doubled up on the actual volume to make 2 litres of working solution.
The only difference I have made to the instructions and the guidance from Tetenal was on the last mix done tonight, I used only 25ml of starter instead of 45 per litre. The 25cl was what I always used with Kodak. Call it clutching at straws!

The main problem I think lies with the lack of understandable instructions instead of using abbreviations - I had no idea what the letters CD-SLR stood for until explained in the previous post. I did notice however the replenishment rate is considerably less than that of Kodak where I always have used 10ml to every 80sq inches. With Tetenal it is 80ml per 1 sq metre.

Why or why can they not make things clear instead of very brief instructions in multiple languages, it ain't exactly rocket science!!!

 

[pentaxuser]

I think we can rule out the DUKA as the problem. It was a long shot anyway. I take it that there is no Tetenal starter with the kit and yet Tetenal seem to say that you need starter and you can "mix and match" Kodak starter with it I cannot see them wanting to say this unless they know that Kodak starter does "mix and match" Usually the tendency is to blame the use of other than Tetenal chemicals in a Tetenal kit.

Back to clutching at straws now. Is it possible to get hold of Tetenal starter and use that to see what happens I have had a quick look at my Kodak Ektacolor developer set and it consists of bottles A+B+C which are needed to make 5L of developer. Each bottle is called developer/replenisher. None of the bottles says Starter but (a) I seem to have lost the instructions and (b) my Kodak kit may be different from yours. For what it is worth each bottle(A,B,C) are the same size so I assume that if trying to make smaller amounts you use the same quantities from each bottle but there is definitely no starter bottle mentioned in the largely graphical description of the kit's make-up i.e. It shows a water tap = 3.75L then A+B+C plus another tap to equal 5L.

The above para may be muddying waters rather than clearing them and if so just ignore it.

I had scratched my head but now there is a groove in it from more scratching. A puzzle and no mistake

pentaxuser

 

[BMbikerider]

When I first queried the problem with AG Photographic they told me they use the Tetenal developer in their mini lab without problems. They also use the Kodak starter. Then they went on to say they used to keep it (Tetenal Starter) but are not sure any more if it was available. I mentioned that there was a product number on the instruction sheet so they must still make it.

I am more than familiar with Kodak Ektacolor developer and solutions A B & C since I started colour printing and have always used the correct starter at 25cc per litre which is what they suggest. It was only because the price of the Kodak product has doubled over the last couple of years that I decided to go down the Tetenal route. There are some decisions in life you regret, this may be one of them.

I now feel, selling a product without full knowledge of what it needs (a starter solution and clearer instructions) is very amiss and unless this is cleared up I will be asking for my money back!

 

[pentaxuser]

BMBikerider, I wonder if we are using the word "starter in a different context. It sounds as if your Kodak kit was the same as mine. The difference may be my interpretation of the word "starter" I has assumed, possibly wrongly, that starter was a separate specific chemical in a separate specific bottle that is used at the make up of a kit only. However it may be that in your context it refers to replenishment To clarify, what I used to do was make up 5L of developer with bottles A,B,and C, place in 2 winebags , decant IL into the Nova slot then replenish from the winebag at the same rate as you did for Kodak so in that sense there was no separate starter, simply a means of replenishing from the same developer held in the winebag. Have I got this right in terms of what you did as well, accepting that your store of fresh developer for replenishment may not have been a winebag of course.

It seems to me that if you can be sure, from difficult to interpret instructions, that your initial make up was correct i.e. before any replenishment became necessary then the initial yellowness points to a faulty developer in totality or at least one of the constituent parts. That makes it AgPhotographic's problem if it was the seller as it sounds to be .

The way of my thinking, if I am correct , suggests that contact with AgPhotographic is the route. The owner buys in relative bulk and has much greater leverage with Tetenal

pentaxuser

 

[BMbikerider]

As it was explained to me by AG lab, when new, RA4 developer is too strong and it needs the starter to restrain it's activity until the through-put of the paper is enough to take over. I am not really convinced with this theory. I have heard of people using the Ektacolor developer without ever using a starter, it appears it just isn't as stable until a quantity of paper has been processed.
After that all replenishment is done with the mix without the starter additive. As I said before I have never ever had a problem with the Kodak version in all the years I have been using it.

To answer your query, the starter is a separate chemical, the Kodak one comes in a 1.2 litre bottle (odd size?) I don't know about the Tetenal version. Apparently you are also supposed to use a starter with the bleach/fix as well, but I never have, and have had no problems on that score.

Anyway this gives me a window of opportunity to empty both of my processors, thoroughly clean them out and get ready for long telephone calls on Monday to try to sort it out. I am not going to give up.

 

[mnemosyne]

Okay, I checked the instructions and will try to explain

1. (front) You mix 1 part of the concentrate with 9 parts water to make the replenisher solution (e.g. 100 ml concentrate + 900 ml water makes 1 liter of replenisher)

2. (rear) then you take the 1000 ml of replenisher prepared in step 1 and mix it with 90 ml of the specified Tetenal starter and 910 ml of water to prepare 2 liter of working solution. This is the solution you should use in the Nova,

the lower row on the rear of the sheet gives you the instructions to directly mix working solution from the concentrate without the intermediate step of preparing the replenisher

If you fail to dilute the replenisher with water as per instructions and instead use the "super low rate" replenisher prepared in step 1 as working solution it will be much too active, even with the starter added.

Regarding the starter, I am not sure if you can simply replace the Tetenal starter with the Kodak one. If you cannot get your hands on the proper starter is might be better to replace the starter in step 2 with water (simply dilute 1 part replenisher with 1 part water to prepare working solution). Without the starter the activity of the developer will be a bit higher in the beginning and then slowly decrease with use but that is what usually happens when you do not replenhish in a slot type processor anyway and shouldn't cause big problems.

 

[BMbikerider]

Thank you so much. If you are correct, this just shows how poor the actual instructions provided and information given by the Tetenal help desk were. This is all info and evidence when I take them to task on Monday. My supplier AG in UK did not even know if a Tetenal starter was available, that just shows how poor the info was. What a load of utter rubbish I was told.

Just to clarify I was reading you right, that with the mix I was using it was simply just to strong which accounts for the predominant yellow colour.

Again thank you

 

[pentaxuser]

Well this is now irrelevant to your problem, BMbikerider, but I have learnt something, namely that there is a definite Kodak starter that is used in the initial developer make-up. All I can say is that either I wasn't sold a starter when I bought my Kodak Ektacolor kit or I did use it initially and then threw away the empty bottle. However if I did that then it would appear that my starter did not have enough for the full box of developer as I still have bottles of A,B and C which will eventually be needed to make up fresh developer and I cannot find any starter bottle.

To make matters worse I wonder if in fact mnemosyne is actually confirming that his explanation has accounted for the yellow colour or is simply clarifying that an extra step exists . I seem to recall from several years past and PE is the person to confirm or deny this, that Kodak starter is really not necessary. I certainly cannot recall that I have seen anything that suggests that with the Kodak kit a starter is the difference between success and this kind of failure you describe.

I wish you well in your conversation with Aglab on Monday. If it intends to make a success of selling this new Tetenal kit it needs to get matters clarified with Tetenal and either add an addendum to the Tetenal instructions or better still persuade Tetenal to revise its current ones.

Let us know how it goes,. Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[BMbikerider]

I have just noticed on the bottom of the instruction sheet there is a web address for Tetenal in Germany. Think I will compose a letter to them and get their take on the subject. I have spoken to them in the past and I know that they speak and understand English better than I do with my German, although I will try using the Google translation app.

To add to the above, I have just had a look at the Tetenal website and the number of RA 4 developers is beyond what is normally sold. It just serves to confuse unless you are a professional lab user. The information given in the instructions is to say the least, sadly lacking.

 

[mnemosyne]

i am not an expert in RA4 processing, but I can indeed imagine that a much too concentrated devloper will increase fog level and could produce the kind of results that BMbikerider is experiencing. But this is just a guess. PE will know if this is a possible explanation or not.

When I say "too concentrated" I mean if you failed to add the appropriate amount water to the solution after mixing the replenisher from the concentrate. For the super low rate replenisher this is about 1+1. So your 4x10 liter kit prepares 40 liters of replenisher, but about 80 liters of working solution. For a normal rate replenisher the problem when you forget to add water is not so big as you add only 20% or so of water when going from replenisher to tank/working solution. For the super low rate type it is different, because a replenisher used as tank solution wihtout further dilution will have twice the strength of a properly prepared working solution.

Concerning the starter: A starter is usually only necessary in a replenished system, where you replace a tiny bit of working solution with replenisher every time a sheet goes through it. When you set up a fresh batch of your working (tank) solution every once in a while, you have to add starter. Why? The starter contains bromide (restrainer) that will lower the developer action just a bit so the fresh working solution behaves exactly like a seasoned working solution that has been used and replenished. The benefit of such a system is that you will get exact, repeatable results from the process, whethter it is the first sheet you run through the solution on that day or the 100th.

Although it is in theory possible to run a Nova slot processor as a replenished system, most people do batch processing like in trays. They fill the processor and just use the developer until it starts to act up. The developer activity will decrease slowly over time with every sheet you process. In theory the filtration (for the same negative) will drift a bit over time, but for all practical purposes in a amateur environment his is relatively irrelevant unless you process 20 or 30 identical prints from the same negative. In this scenario it really doesn't make a lot of difference if you use the starter or not. The results will be slightly different, but you compensate through exposure and filtration, as the whole process will be drifting anyway this is a relative problem not an absolute one. I hope I made myself clear ...

 

[BMbikerider]

The saga continues this time with success. I found I had just enough Kodak RA4 developer and starter left to make up half a litre, with a little bit over. I used an open dish to process the same negative into a print with the original filtration (70m 65Y). After bleaching/fixing and washing, I saw that the whites were indeed white and there was no yellow cast. So it seems in conclusion that the Tetenal concentrate was bad (unlikely), or the instructions being so scanty and unclear, I ended up mixing it incorrectly resulting with problems I encountered.

The description on the dealers website make no mention of needing a starter. They thought it was no longer made(?). Then the instructions did not make it clear what dilution was needed for a deep tank processor such as a NOVA

The next step is to try to get my money back and buy Kodak chemicals that I have always used previously. At least I now know that my technique and equipment are not at fault and it is down to the new brand of developer.

Thanks for your help and advice guys.

 

[twelvetone12]

The fist time I used a tetenal colortec c41 it had conflicting instructions between Italian, French and English. I don't use their kit anymore.

 

[mnemosyne]

The saga continues this time with success. I found I had just enough Kodak RA4 developer and starter left to make up half a litre, with a little bit over. I used an open dish to process the same negative with the original filtration (70m 65Y). After bleaching/fixing and washing, I saw that the whites were indeed white and there was no yellow cast. So it seems in conclusion that the Tetenal concentrate was bad (unlikely), or the instructions being so scanty and unclear, I ended up mixing it incorrectly resulting with problems I encountered.

The description on the dealers website make no mention of needing a starter. They thought it was no longer made(?). Then the instructions did not make it clear what dilution was needed for a deep tank processor such as a NOVA

The next step is to try to get my money back and buy Kodak chemicals that I have always used previously. At least I now know that my technique and equipment are not at fault and it is down to the new brand of developer.

Thanks for your help and advice guys.

I think you are a bit too harsh with Tetenal. The product you bought is simply not meant to be used with Nova tanks an the like, It is aimed at professional labs (big roller transport processors etc), so you can hardly blame Tetenal for not including information about a kind of application the product is simply not intended for. If someone doesn't know the difference between a replenisher and a working solution etc then this is just not the right product for him. I hate to say this but to be fair ... the mixing instructions were clear enough for me and should be clear enough for the group of people the product is aimed at (professionals). I think if anyone is to blame then it is the seller who is selling a pro product to amateur users without providing the more detailed information.

 

[pentaxuser]

I think you are a bit too harsh with Tetenal. The product you bought is simply not meant to be used with Nova tanks an the like, It is aimed at professional labs (big roller transport processors etc), so you can hardly blame Tetenal for not including information about a kind of application the product is simply not intended for. If someone doesn't know the difference between a replenisher and a working solution etc then this is just not the right product for him. I hate to say this but to be fair ... the mixing instructions were clear enough for me and should be clear enough for the group of people the product is aimed at (professionals). I think if anyone is to blame then it is the seller who is selling a pro product to amateur users without providing the more detailed information.

I am unclear why if you get the mixing correct that Tetenal is not meant to be used with Nova slot processors. If it isn't meant i.e. cannot be successfully used with a Nova slot processor or presumably a Jobo CPE2 for instance then at the very least you'd think that Tetenal would warn buyers that out of their various kits this one was not for home equipment X or Y.

It may be that Tetenal warned the retailer about what appears to be its product's limitations and that retailer took the chance to sell it to home enthusiast. I don't know. This may come out in any conversations that are had with said retailer. All I would say is that if I wanted to protect my reputation and sales with the home enthusiasts' market as a manufacturer I'd (a) ensure that retailers were warned against the sale of this kit to home enthusiasts or (b) if it can be safely used by home enthusiasts then I'd make sure that the translation of my instructions were clear.

Good written English is not generally a problem for German companies selling to the English speaking market. Tetenal may be taking the stand of: If you haven't the experience to use this stuff then you should know not to buy it without us having to make it clear but that is a recipe for disaster in terms of a company's well being, I'd have thought.

pentaxuser

 

[Photo Engineer]

Just to be clear on one thing at the very start of my post.

You can use Kodak RA4 Developer Replenisher with no starter if mixed properly. All other kits should be the same if they are to give the same results. Since RA4 papers develop up to their intended point and almost stop, this appears to be a difference in the Tetenal kit wrt to development rate. Not sure, but here is an answer if this is the case. Do a development time series of 30", 45" and 60" at 35C or do 45" at 30, 35 and 40 C. If fog changes, then this might be a kit/mix problem.

PE

 

[pentaxuser]

Just to be clear on one thing at the very start of my post.

You can use Kodak RA4 Developer Replenisher with no starter if mixed properly. All other kits should be the same if they are to give the same results. Since RA4 papers develop up to their intended point and almost stop, this appears to be a difference in the Tetenal kit wrt to development rate. Not sure, but here is an answer if this is the case. Do a development time series of 30", 45" and 60" at 35C or do 45" at 30, 35 and 40 C. If fog changes, then this might be a kit/mix problem.

PE

Thanks PE. Given the price of starter, doing without it seems sensible me. Like BMbikerider. I have the Kodak Ektacolor kit. What does "mixed properly" mean in practical terms. As I said in an earlier post I mixed the developer according to the maker's instructions but I seem to have lost the Kodak instructions. So once mixed as 5L of stock which is 3.75L water plus bottle A, B and C plus water to 5L is there then a difference between what I do when the kit has no starter compared to when I do when using starter?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[BMbikerider]

I think you are a bit too harsh with Tetenal. The product you bought is simply not meant to be used with Nova tanks an the like, It is aimed at professional labs (big roller transport processors etc), so you can hardly blame Tetenal for not including information about a kind of application the product is simply not intended for. If someone doesn't know the difference between a replenisher and a working solution etc then this is just not the right product for him. I hate to say this but to be fair ... the mixing instructions were clear enough for me and should be clear enough for the group of people the product is aimed at (professionals). I think if anyone is to blame then it is the seller who is selling a pro product to amateur users without providing the more detailed information.

Point 1. On the instructions there is absolutely nothing to say that it must not be used with a Nova processor or is unsuitable to be used with one.
Point 2. I spoke at length with the Tetenal Technical Manager who stated categorically that it can be used with a Nova Processor and advised me to use Option 2 shown on the back of the instruction leaflet.

It is their duty to state either by mouth or in writing if it is suitable or not. This is covered by the Trade Descriptions Act in UK, where a product must be of merchantable quality and it does seem that this may be a bit of a problem which I have yet to deal with. However under the Act, If goods are unsuitable or of unmerchantable quality then the dealer is the 1st line of contact and he has to sort it out one way or another. This is pretty much the same as in your last sentence. In the instructions there are too many unknown abbreviations which mean a lot to a lab,but not to the amateur user.

Contrary to what you state, but after being directed by the Tech Help at Tetenal to use option 2 I did measure out the quantities of chemical in the correct proportions with accurate graduated laboratory beakers so, yes I to can mix and measure things accurately.

This problem makes it a little bit awkward because I have a good relationship with the dealer and want it to stay that way, but the matter must be thrashed out for the good of everyone.

 

[BMbikerider]

Just to be clear on one thing at the very start of my post.

You can use Kodak RA4 Developer Replenisher with no starter if mixed properly. All other kits should be the same if they are to give the same results. Since RA4 papers develop up to their intended point and almost stop, this appears to be a difference in the Tetenal kit wrt to development rate. Not sure, but here is an answer if this is the case. Do a development time series of 30", 45" and 60" at 35C or do 45" at 30, 35 and 40 C. If fog changes, then this might be a kit/mix problem.

PE

Thanks for your sound advice but I feel that I have no more time to waste in experimenting with various times/dilutions (plus I have no more starter of whatever make) and will wait until I speak again to the dealer and/or Tetenal themselves. I will, whatever the outcome not be using Tetenal RA4, but returning to Kodak. I wish I had never changed.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Thanks for your sound advice but I feel that I have no more time to waste in experimenting with various times/dilutions (plus I have no more starter of whatever make) and will wait until I speak again to the dealer and/or Tetenal themselves. I will, whatever the outcome not be using Tetenal RA4, but returning to Kodak. I wish I had never changed.

I've gotten that impression from other posts.

As for mixing properly, I follow the Kodak instructions on the bottle to make RA-RT developer replenisher for the RA4 process.

PE