RA-4 chemistry options for Ilford ICP-42 processor

[apollodarkroom]

Greetings! First time poster here, so go easy on me! This is going to be a long one.

Thanks to Craigslist, I am now the proud owner of an Ilford ICP-42 tabletop roller transport processor. It was purchased from a retired Ilford technical rep who bought it in 1995 and only used it a few times. Hoping to get some guidance on what my options are for setting it up for RA-4.

For background, up to this point I have been processing RA-4 in trays using Kodak Ektacolor chemicals at room temperature. I do developer followed immediately by blix, and a final wash in the sink. This *appears* to give great economy out of the chemicals — the developer has been lasting for 30+ 8x10s, and although it’s possible the blix is exhausting, I don’t mind since I’m not yet at the point of doing final prints. Color consistency is also not important to me. I mix up the Replenisher chemicals with no starter, do not do any replenishment during the process, and discard the chemicals after 1-3 sessions. However, I found I had a bad reaction to these chemicals on 3 occasions, in which I developed a sore throat after using them. This caused me to finally grasp that the lack of ventilation is not acceptable, and I’ve since ordered an extractor fan and ducting to set up. It is also part of the reason I decided to get a processor, in the hopes that my exposure to the chemicals can be further minimized if prints are processed more quickly on a closed apparatus (rather than by sloshing open trays around in front of my face for hours).

A few details about the processor:
- The first section has 3 stages that are labeled for Dev, Bleach, and Fix. Temperature and time can be set, but it must be the same for all stages.
- The unit also includes the IWD-42 washer and dryer, with two washing stages. However, upon testing we found that the dryer unit is not working — no heat is generated and the fans are not spinning. Tried troubleshooting with the owner and we weren’t able to figure it out yet. I decided to purchase anyway (for half price!) thinking that I may be able to just use the IWD for replacement parts (rollers especially), and run the primary unit only, still washing prints in the sink.

Finally, on to my questions!
- I’m considering starting with running Dev-Blix-Wash at room temp in the first unit to replicate my tray process. The print would then drop into a tray of water to wait for further washing. My thoughts here are that if the print is partially washed when it comes out, I can better evaluate the color than I currently can. Residual blix quickly yellows my water tray currently, and it’s difficult to judge the color of the print. In addition, large prints would come out partially washed rather than covered with blix, which will be better for chemical exposure. What are the downsides of this? What alternative would you recommend (dev-stop-blix? Higher temp?)?
- Is it necessary to do replenishment? How would this work? Can I do replenishment every 10-15 prints for instance, instead of constantly? Again, color consistency is not a big concern for me.
- Looking for guidance as well on my bad reaction to these chemicals. Although I’m sure the ventilation will help, I’m still weary about risking my health. I know that a processor will still produce fumes, especially if chemicals are held at temp. Any advice? Alternative chemicals? I once read that carryover from dev to blix was very bad for this, for instance. I want to do this for a long time and at high volumes, so developing a sensitivity to the chemicals would be heart breaking.

Thank you very much for your time!

 

[apollodarkroom]

Was really hoping to get some responses here, can anyone help me out?

 

[foc]

I have never used a processor like the one you mentioned but I have experience of commercial RA4 processing.
You mentioned you will use Dev, Blix, Wash and then you can evaluate the print prior to full wash (am I correct?) The quick wash will only work if the wash is fresh or replenished as blix carry over can be a lot.
Is the rep manual or automatic?
If repping manually then I would suggest small amounts often rather than a big amount as it can drop the temps. For example, for Extacolor RA dev your rep should be 135ml per sq Mt (according to my calculations you should get 16.5 sheets of 10x8 per sq Mt)
In commercial RA4 there is no stop between dev and blix so I would go with dev-blix-wash.
Have you instructions for the Ilford processor?
Again commercial temps and times are:
RA4 dev is 45 sec @38C
Blix is 45 sec @38C
Wash 90 sec @ 38C

These links may be of help
https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/uat/files/wysiwyg/pro/chemistry/z130.pdf
https://www.fujifilm.eu/fileadmin/c...icals/Photochemicals_RA4/TB_RA4_E17_09-13.pdf

If you are using a kit then follow the instructions.
From what I can gather, your processor tanks are 2 Lt, again this link might help https://9x12photo.com/fineart/content/processor/
Regarding fumes, any chemical process will give off fumes but an enclosed processor will give off less than open trays but you say you now have ventilation. The bigger the room the better. I would suggest trying to keep temps around 38 and no more than 42C as any higher will cause evaporation and more fumes.
Again I would suggest a little often as in a small amount of extraction constantly and not forgetting that you need an intake supply of fresh air.

I hope I have been of some help. Maybe someone else can give better suggestions.
Let us know how you get on.

 

[apollodarkroom]

Many thanks for the response @foc !

Good to know about the stop bath being unnecessary — that is consistent with the Kodak documentation I’ve read.

You are correct, the processor holds 2L of chemical per stage. I have ordered a printed copy of the manual which should be arriving in a few days. For now I am simply working on cleaning and inspecting the unit to make sure all hoses are intact, connections are without leaks, and pumps are working properly.

Replenishment would be manual. The chemicals come to temp pretty rapidly, so I’m not too concerned about replenishing less frequently. I will probably also start by running at room temp to compare directly with my tray prints and confirm that fumes are no longer a problem with the new fan. For the replenishment, do I simply mix up the Ektacolor stock solution and add the 135ml of that to the solution in the processor? Does this work the same for both the dev and blix?

Thank you again!

 

[btaylor]

I find the RA4 chemical fumes unpleasant too, though fortunately I haven’t had an adverse reaction yet. You will find your processor will reduce your exposure a great deal. Even so, ventilate!
I have two roller transport machines. The old Durst has no dryer, only Dev and blix. I just let the prints drop into a wash tray. I change the water frequently. Then into an Ilford RC dryer. I cannot make any density or color adjustments until the print comes out of the dryer- the colors change that much. Replenishment is simple, I found the formula somewhere, I think it was 2 oz per 8x10? I usually replenish at the end of a printing session when I am draining off the chemicals. I just add the required new developer and fill the bottles, discarding any excess. Both the Developer and blix. Have fun!

 

[Wayne]

Have you checked the rollers carefully for swelling?

This seems like a pretty difficult way to get around the fact that you simply had poor ventilation before, but maybe it will work out for your style and printing needs. I also have one of these that I don't use (I've only used it for Cibachrome anyway, not RA-4), and I have the manual. I find trays so easy and I don't print often enough or in large enough volume to make using the processor worthwhile. It also has some bad rollers.

 

[apollodarkroom]

@Wayne, yes, I’ve checked the rollers and thoroughly cleaned everything. There are a couple locations towards the end of some of rollers where there are some small bubbles, but it doesn’t seem to impact their functionality. I also have the washer dryer unit that I can use the rollers from as backup. Is there anything that roller swelling impacts other than not properly feeding the paper through (e.g. back contamination). I suppose if that’s a concern I can put the best set of rollers between the dev and blix.

To your point about ventilation, at this point I’m trying to do everything possible to minimize my exposure. The fan is installed, but based on my original reaction to using open trays I’m not convinced it’ll be enough long term. My long term plan is to purchase a slot processor, however this option presented itself for a small fraction of the price. So rather than lay down the dough for a slot processor now, I figured I could try this roller processor in the meantime and confirm that I won’t have a problem with this level of chemical exposure. Hope that makes sense!

 

[Wayne]

@Wayne, yes, I’ve checked the rollers and thoroughly cleaned everything. There are a couple locations towards the end of some of rollers where there are some small bubbles, but it doesn’t seem to impact their functionality. I also have the washer dryer unit that I can use the rollers from as backup. Is there anything that roller swelling impacts other than not properly feeding the paper through (e.g. back contamination). I suppose if that’s a concern I can put the best set of rollers between the dev and blix.

To your point about ventilation, at this point I’m trying to do everything possible to minimize my exposure. The fan is installed, but based on my original reaction to using open trays I’m not convinced it’ll be enough long term. My long term plan is to purchase a slot processor, however this option presented itself for a small fraction of the price. So rather than lay down the dough for a slot processor now, I figured I could try this roller processor in the meantime and confirm that I won’t have a problem with this level of chemical exposure. Hope that makes sense!

I'd be concerned about both carryover and potentially uneven development with bad rollers and less so with transport, unless they are really bad. But I can't say that I've experienced any of the above.

I wouldn't necessarily base your projected future reaction to fumes on your past reaction, since it sounds like you used the absolute worst possible setup: open trays with completely inadequate ventilation. Unless you have a pre-existing sensitivity to the chemicals or caused one by using such an inadequate setup (and that is possible), its going to be a completely different experience if you set up the ventilation properly, with adequate cfm and proper positioning of the fan so all fumes are pulled away from you and not past you.

 

[apollodarkroom]

@Wayne , thank you, good to know. I will definitely put the best set of rollers between the dev and blix in that case.

I’m not ruling out the possibility of having already developed a sensitivity, but that would seem unlikely considering I’ve only processed color prints maybe 7-8 times over the course of 6 months. I’m optimistic about both the fan and the processor helping, but if that’s not enough then I may try printing color in a commercial darkroom just to see if I have the same reaction under a more professional ventilation setup.

Thanks so much for your responses!

 

[apollodarkroom]

Reporting back with mostly success!

Last night after work, I finally filled up the processor, turned on the fan, and made some prints. It worked! I set it to room temperature with Dev, Blix, and Wash, and the time set to 2 minutes per stage. And most importantly.. I did not wake up with a sore throat this morning, despite getting up close and personal with the chemicals during filling and draining! This hopefully ties my response to something like sulfur dioxide gas accumulating in the workspace and not being extracted, rather than actual sensitivity to the chemicals, but time will tell.

A few notes:
- Filling and draining this thing was quite the adventure. I had done it with water before, but haphazardly. It was tough to avoid some dribbling on the table and floor, and it took me a full 40 minutes to drain and flush the machine after working. This will definitely be a weekend-only endeavor!
- Upon draining the dev I noted that it had gone from light yellow to brownish in color. I doubt this was enough time for oxidation so it looks like I may have some back-contamination from the blix. Either that or the blix residue that I had spent the past week cleaning out of the machine is still there in the nooks and crannies. Next time I will run a test with some water and food coloring to figure out which one is the issue.
- Annoyingly, the processor is oriented such that the hoses to fill the chemicals are in the back of the machine instead of the front. I had simply decided to turn the machine 180 to have more access, but this means that the small fan on the housing blows directly into my face while I’m working at the enlarger. As a result I ended up only turning on the processor when ready to develop a print. This is not ideal if I decide to run it at temperature in the future. Just another thing to figure out!

Many thanks to those who replied and helped me out, it was very helpful!

 

[foc]

- Upon draining the dev I noted that it had gone from light yellow to brownish in color. I doubt this was enough time for oxidation so it looks like I may have some back-contamination from the blix. Either that or the blix residue that I had spent the past week cleaning out of the machine is still there in the nooks and crannies. Next time I will run a test with some water and food coloring to figure out which one is the issue.

If you had contamination in the dev, you would know from the prints. The whites would look cyan and the cast would carry through the print.

Regarding back contamination from the blix, how do you think it is getting into the dev?

I am delighted you had success so far and that your ventilation is working.

Looking forward to hearing more of your success stories.

 

[MattKing]

Probably not oxidation.
Most likely a combination of some oxidation, some developer exhaustion, and some build-up of developer byproducts.

 

[apollodarkroom]

@foc and @MattKing, the dev was freshly mixed the prior evening and I only processed 6 8x10 prints, so I can’t imagine exhaustion was the culprit. I did see some cyan developing but I also happened to be changing filtration in real time to intentionally add cyan.. when you say it would carry through the print, does that include the unexposed borders?

I still think it’s possible that it was residual crud in the machine being dissolved. If it is back-contamination though, I’m also still trying to figure out how that would even happen. I admit the processor was not entirely level, so there could have been some unwanted seeping or splashing I suppose. The food coloring experiment with water should be an easy way to confirm or rule this out!

 

[mshchem]

I love machines, but if you can find some Unicolor, Beseler, Omega etc etc tubes you will be so happy. Especially with RA4 effortless.

 

[apollodarkroom]

Thanks @mshchem! There are pros and cons to every method. I’m more interested in a slot processor long term, specifically the recently released Optima 16.

 

[mshchem]

Thanks @mshchem! There are pros and cons to every method. I’m more interested in a slot processor long term, specifically the recently released Optima 16.

Slot processors are awesome. Replenishment, excellent temperature control, low chemistry volume. I see all the Nova units on Ebay in the UK. I may need to find a hut in Scotland, come for the Haggis, stay for the 240V 50Hz!

 

[apollodarkroom]

Reporting back with more discoveries!

I ran the previously described experiment, loading water in all 3 tanks, with a few drops of green food coloring added to the center (blix) stage. I ran the processor for a about an hour on and off, fake-processing a few sheets while running some time and temperature calibrations. Upon draining the dev tank, sure enough.. green! For comparison, the third stage had a bit of green in it from carryover, but not nearly as much as the dev stage. This shows there is definitely back contamination from the blix to the dev. I’m having a really hard time seeing how this is even physically possible on the machine. If anyone has any thoughts, let me know! Concerned this is gonna be a tough fix..

 

[foc]

Reporting back with more discoveries!

I ran the previously described experiment, loading water in all 3 tanks, with a few drops of green food coloring added to the center (blix) stage. I ran the processor for a about an hour on and off, fake-processing a few sheets while running some time and temperature calibrations. Upon draining the dev tank, sure enough.. green! For comparison, the third stage had a bit of green in it from carryover, but not nearly as much as the dev stage. This shows there is definitely back contamination from the blix to the dev. I’m having a really hard time seeing how this is even physically possible on the machine. If anyone has any thoughts, let me know! Concerned this is gonna be a tough fix..

First thing I would check, make sure the processor is level, using a builders spirit level. If it is not level, was it leaning back towards the dev tank? Make it level and retry the above experiment with the food dye.
If this is correct then try the following. (it is basically a process of elimination)
Ok so you have established that you are getting a flow of blix back into the dev tank. How green was it?
Can you fill the blix tank ONLY with the water & green food dye, make sure the dev tank is completely dry and see where it is gaining entry into the dev tank?
Is there an overflow/chemical exit in each of the tanks? Check pipes for blockage and backflow.

I did see some cyan developing but I also happened to be changing filtration in real time to intentionally add cyan.. when you say it would carry through the print, does that include the unexposed borders?

If contaminated the unexposed white border should show cyan. A simple test to see if a chemical is contaminated is to process an unexposed sheet of paper. It should come out just white.

 

[apollodarkroom]

Reporting back!

Last night I tried loading up the blix tank only with green water to try to see if there are any actual leaks visible. Fortunately I did not see anything.

With respect to leveling, I confirmed that the machine (and table) were definitely unlevel front to back, which I could see previously from the chemical levels. Corrected this easily, however the left to right leveling was more difficult. Not sure how to describe this, but the blix and wash tanks are aligned well with each other, but the dev tank is slanted with respect to both, and in the undesirable direction (slopes down with respect to the other two). This makes it impossible to level both. In fact, when I follow the leveling procedure from the manual, resting the level in the desired locations causes the level to rock back and forth. Not sure how to correct this, it seems rather sturdy and the tanks can’t be shifted with respect to each other.

Thoughts? Thanks!!