RA-4 at room temp?

[Griffin Miller]

Going to start printing RA-4 at home this winter and I've got a few basic questions.

First, is there any difference in developing at room temp for 2 minutes compared to the recommended 34.4C for 1 minute?

In addition to this, does the prewet used when developing in a print processing drum have to be the same temp as the developer, or just anywhere in between 30 and 36C?

I've got Kodak chemistry and I've been referencing their J39 document and it says to maintain a temperature within +/- 0.3C of the temp you choose, but I've also heard a lot about developing at room temp.

Any insight would be appreciated!!

 

[halfaman]

Never done it but open trays and room temperature is how PE said he personally worked RA4 his whole life. He claims also that he found no color shift compared to 35° C.

 

[koraks]

I do room temp in open trays exclusively and it works perfectly. No prewet is needed; I'd just skip it. RA4 is a lot less fussy than C41. In fact, apart from having to work in the dark it's pretty much the same as b&w in terms of paper processing if you're doing a room temp process.

 

[Griffin Miller]

No prewet is needed; I'd just skip it.

Does this only apply to open tray processing? On that document I mentioned earlier, Kodak doesn't have a prewet step for tray processing, but includes one for drum processing

 

[koraks]

Drum processing seems to give issues for some with water droplets etc, perhaps that's why they recommend it. Or maybe it's to bring the drum up to temperature. Either way, I find it unnecessary when doing tray development. I personally found drums a chore; more work than they were worth.

 

[mklw1954]

Since temperature is a variable, will your room temperature be the same each time you develop? If not, you will probably have to find development times that work for each of your variable room temperatures.

(I use drums and a simple means of temperature control to develop at Kodak's recommended temperature and times and get great results. I seem to have a sensitivity to the developer so would not use open trays.)

 

[wyofilm]

I have been using the Arista RA-4 kit (I assume they are all the same) and print at 75F. The recommended time in the product insert is 3'20'' at 75F. I like this method the best because I am working closer to ambient temp, thus temp control really isn't an issue. I've measured the temp of developer going into a processing drum at 74F and coming out (after 3'20'') coming out at 72F. I think that this is probably quite good, because most of the development will happen early on.

Just yesterday I used a Heath 'Canoe' for 16x20 prints. Since this was big and metal, I imagined that the developer would cool more quickly (I don't know because I didn't measure the temp change). I processed for more like 3'40'' because of the logistical reasons of working in the dark. Anyway, I could detect no change in print color from test 8x10's made in processing drums and the 16x20 print made in the canoe.

I would say that for me room temp is the best way. It also lends itself to a less hurried process. One where I can easily clean up after each step and prepare for the next step. I use a motorized drum roller, which frees me for 3'20''.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I tried room temp once; never again! I standardize on 30C, 2 min, drums. Open trays would put too many nasty fumes in the air. I load the drums in the darkroom, then do the actual chemical steps outdoors, using a big roller device atop a portable cart. I can handle up to 30x40 inch prints that way. Test strips are done in an 8x10 drum.

 

[koraks]

Since temperature is a variable, will your room temperature be the same each time you develop? If not, you will probably have to find development times that work for each of your variable room temperatures.

Not really, in my experience. My room temperature fluctuates between 17C and about 24C (the chemistry at least) and I haven't noticed any significant differences despite using the same 90 second development time.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Getting results is one thing; efficiently getting predictable, consistent results is another, and I don't see how that would be possible unless dev temp itself is consistent. Even with trays, a larger tray can be used as a simple tempering water jacket, just like has been used in black and white film work for decades. But thick plastic drums make the job easier because they retain heat inside them after you pre-condition them with a generous pre-rinse at correct temp prior to actual development.

 

[koraks]

You have your way, I have mine. I have no inclination whatsoever to sway your views.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Pro labs also had their way too, with very stringent consistent temperature parameters. Otherwise, they wouldn't have any business.

 

[RPC]

Unlike C-41, RA-4 can tolerate a huge developing temperature range without crossover, and also has a wide temperature range without overall color shift, in my experience. I have developed between 68 and 75F for two minutes with no noticeable shift. YMMV.

I get far greater developer capacity with trays than with a drum. When I used drums my 8x10 drum needed 70 ml of developer per print, used one-shot. With a liter of developer I could process 14 8x10 prints. But with a liter of developer in an 8x10 tray, I have done more than twice that without any noticeable color shift or loss of saturation. This is using the Kodak RA-RT replenisher.

 

[DREW WILEY]

My 8x10 drums are more efficient than that, and I can do over 30 8X10's per liter in my drums. But a certain amount of surplus liquid is important for maintaining internal temperature as well as for compensating for any lack of level when the drum is running, if someone hasn't checked that. With large print sizes, drums are going to be way more economical to use in terms of chemistry volume than big trays, while large automated roller transport processors require significant volumes of chemistry to begin with, and generally automated replenishment as well. Drums do require more work-session time and fuss.
My main objection to open trays is the long-term health hazard. I've known owners of pro labs who couldn't even enter their own facility at a certain point due to RA4 sensitization. And they had serious ventilation and automation. It catches up with you. I'm sensitive to RA4 myself; and that's why I do actual processing itself outdoors in mild weather - and not at all at the moment because I don't want any respiratory irritation whatsoever during a pandemic. People who say they aren't affected might be speaking truly; but then suddenly it happens. That's the way sensitization works - it slowly creeps toward a threshold, and whammy! So I do hope those of you who prefer trays also have well thought-out airflow in your darkroom.
I remain extremely skeptical of claims that color shifts do not occur with wide temp variations. Just a few degrees F either way doesn't seem to make much difference. If tighter visual parameters were involved, such anomalies would probably be readily apparent to a trained eye. Many people simply don't notice the discrepancies; but they are probably there. There are distinct ways to test for that kind of thing.

 

[wyofilm]

My 8x10 drums are more efficient than that, and I can do over 30 8X10's per liter in my drums. But a certain amount of surplus liquid is important for maintaining internal temperature as well as for compensating for any lack of level when the drum is running, if someone hasn't checked that. With large print sizes, drums are going to be way more economical to use in terms of chemistry volume than big trays, while large automated roller transport processors require significant volumes of chemistry to begin with, and generally automated replenishment as well. Drums do require more work-session time and fuss.
My main objection to open trays is the long-term health hazard. I've known owners of pro labs who couldn't even enter their own facility at a certain point due to RA4 sensitization. And they had serious ventilation and automation. It catches up with you. I'm sensitive to RA4 myself; and that's why I do actual processing itself outdoors in mild weather - and not at all at the moment because I don't want any respiratory irritation whatsoever during a pandemic. People who say they aren't affected might be speaking truly; but then suddenly it happens. That's the way sensitization works - it slowly creeps toward a threshold, and whammy! So I do hope those of you who prefer trays also have well thought-out airflow in your darkroom.
I remain extremely skeptical of claims that color shifts do not occur with wide temp variations. Just a few degrees F either way doesn't seem to make much difference. If tighter visual parameters were involved, such anomalies would probably be readily apparent to a trained eye. Many people simply don't notice the discrepancies; but they are probably there. There are distinct ways to test for that kind of thing.

Which chemical step do you find is of concern?

 

[brbo]

I get far greater developer capacity with trays than with a drum. When I used drums my 8x10 drum needed 70 ml of developer per print, used one-shot. With a liter of developer I could process 14 8x10 prints. But with a liter of developer in an 8x10 tray, I have done more than twice that without any noticeable color shift or loss of saturation. This is using the Kodak RA-RT replenisher.

I can't use trays so I do one-shot in drums. I dilute RA-RT replenisher 1+1. I develop at 35ºC for 50s, so not that much longer than I would need at full strength. I can get away with using 60ml in my Jobo 8x10", but for final print I use 80ml (I use 50ml for test prints). I've compared 1+1 vs full strength and can't tell them apart in blind test. The best thing is that filtration is the same.

 

[RPC]

I do not know just how many prints I could actually get with tray use from a liter of developer. While making 8x10 contact prints from my negatives, I have done close to 40 prints with no obvious degradation, although I didn't do A-B comparisons with fresh developer. The RA-RT replenisher has an excellent preservative and oxidation protection (which I believe gives it the peculiar odor) making it ideal for tray use for those not bothered by the odor.

I have used an RA-4 home brew formula with excellent results which does not use the RA-RT preservative and has no odor, although capacity is greatly reduced compared to the RA-RT replenisher when used in trays.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Being low odor does not necessarily make something safer over the long haul. Sensitization is a complicated topic, even for medical specialists. My wife works at an interdisciplinary clinic that specializes in that kind of thing, with five endocrinologists on staff, and none of them could give you a specific answer, just a litany of testing protocols and trial and error potential treatments. But sensitivity to industrial chemicals is generally irreversible, and the only answer is to limit exposure. Epoxies are the worst. I know someone who worked in an epoxy plant for years, and now can't even touch a baked enamel desk twenty years old without breaking out into hives and anaphylactic shock. I'm less sensitive to RA4 now than back when I had to work around industrial paint colorants, but still try to be cautious. Sooner or later someone is even going to develop sensitivity to the glycols outgassing off large inkjet work being printed in an unventilated room. Such glycols have already been banned in many other products due to that risk. Its what keeps the inks from drying out and clogging those tiny nozzles.

 

[Wayne]

Which chemical step do you find is of concern?

Drew has his reasons for being careful about using RA-4 in open trays, and he's certainly correct in the general sense that people can become sensitized to chemicals. IIRC he has said he's sensitive to amines, but it didn't happen from RA-4 in his home darkroom.

Heck, I used to love kiwis until the day my throat swelled up and I couldn't breathe and almost got hauled to the ER. I'm not such a big kiwi fan now. In fact I won't even take a bite of one now. But I don't regret eating them for the handful of years I was able to. If I was able to go back to my pre-kiwi days, I'd still eat that first one and the next few hundred I ate before suddenly becoming allergic or "sensitized".

There are dozens and dozens of posts here and elsewhere about the dangers of becoming sensitized to RA-4 in open trays, but to the best of my recollection in the 15 years I've been here and the 20+ years I've been around other darkroom sites they are all or almost all by Drew. That doesn't mean that people shouldn't be careful, and of course, of course, of course use good and proper ventilation, gloves or tongs, goggles. But I've never heard of it actually happening to anyone who uses PPE in a properly ventilated HOME hobby darkroom. That doesn't mean it couldn't. I know he has the best intentions but I also don't like to see such discouraging talk about the absolute best, simplest, quickest and most productive (and a perfectly safe) way to print RA-4, IMHO.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Wayne - I've heard that same line of equivocation from local "artistes" year after year, until a lot of them got really sick due to an attitude of macho carelessness. I know quite a few darkroom workers too who eventually slammed into a brick wall, health-wise, and now deeply regret it - people just like you. I knew a lot of research chemists who got too comfortable with chemicals. In fact, around this University town there was a common saying that there are certain categories of people who don't live past 52: cropduster pilots, industrial painters, and research chemists. Yes, most (not all) ordinary black and white chemicals are relatively mild. Color chemistry is not. You are not helping anyone by trying to poo-poo the issue.
Hobbyists can be among the most susceptible because they are less equipped or trained. There is nothing discouraging about this kind of warning. Most darkroom products are much less dangerous than those used in ordinary unventilated nail salons; but you'd be amazed at how many women get hauled out of those places in ambulances per year. Lacquers are used in nail salons that are by category outlawed for any kind of industrial use, but are ironically exempted from sales to amateur woodworkers. This is just an example of why low-volume casual home use is not necessarily safer. The argument that you haven't heard of an issue yet on APUG just demonstrates a lack of talking to informed people about it. Mere web chatter goes all over the map. Try an MSDS sheet instead.

 

[wyofilm]

Not casting doubt about being cautious. My question had more to do with identifying a specific step of the RA-4 process. Much like the well known example Drew gave of epoxy sensitization. Should bleach/fixing step of RA-4 be the common culprit then greater precautions can be made at the expense of temperature control.

For what it is worth, as a former research chemist, I never witnessed my colleagues dropping off before 52. But maybe my circle of colleagues and I were particularly fortunate.

 

[Wayne]

How dare I say anything, no matter how cautiously and politely worded. Now I'm one of those people "like me".

 

[grat]

How dare I say anything, no matter how cautiously and politely worded. Now I'm one of those people "like me".

Ah. That would be an "internet" sensitivity. Usually caused by too much social media, but some of us were inoculated in the Usenet days. Even with inoculation, though, occasional outbreaks of grumpy old bast... admin... syndrome are possible.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Wyo ... I've know dozens of people who died relatively young due to products once routinely sold nationwide retail, every one of which was claimed at the time to be nearly harmless by the producer, but most of which are now outright banned worldwide. Every day in the lunchroom I chatted with the old researcher behind products like Roundup, who minimized the risk but then broke out with all kinds of weird cancer. One of my best friends was an EPA inspector monitoring pesticide abuse who died at 52 of multiple cancers; he'd find illegals hired as duster plane flaggers left dead in the fields.
Much of my business the decade before I retired involved sales of specialized hazmat equipment. I've seen a lot of very sick people over the years who were once macho. That included a few pro lab owners. A very successful painter who got me some of my first serious gallery connections now shakes uncontrollably and lives with terrible pain due to smoothing cadmium pigments with his fingers, even though he knew better. Taking such risks just seemed to come with the territory, culturally, back then, just like hard drinking.
That's just the tip of the iceberg. I sold a darn lot of chemicals to the military too, and back then they were deliberately careless. Friends of mine who worked in the local shipyards are now in terrible health. I had a young friend recently die due to merely living in the vicinity of the shipyards, and an in-law recently buried due to seasonally serving at a military base next to a Monsanto plant, a township where hundreds were similarly affected.
The whole point of this diatribe is that I've heard it all before...seen it all before. Over and over and over again. Same kind of excuses. It just ain't worth the risk. If one opts to work with color chemistry, like I myself plan to keep doing, then do your homework first, and do it as safely as you can, with intelligently designed airflow and personal protection, and study the MSDS sheets. But DON'T assume that if something doesn't initially bother you, it won't have long-term effects. That's simply not the way it works.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Heck, I used to love kiwis until the day my throat swelled up and I couldn't breathe and almost got hauled to the ER. I'm not such a big kiwi fan now. In fact I won't even take a bite of one now. But I don't regret eating them for the handful of years I was able to. If I was able to go back to my pre-kiwi days, I'd still eat that first one and the next few hundred I ate before suddenly becoming allergic or "sensitized".

I have always found Kiwis to be really nice people, why would you ever become a cannibal and eat a Kiwi?