Questions about old cameras

Alaskahsm · Nov 2, 2015

Hi I am writing a book and have questions about older 35 mm cameras. I thought this would be a great place to come. So older standard 35 mm cameras, did they pull the film out of the canisters and then roll around the spool? If they did, did the film come all the way out of the canister and then how did it get back into the canister. I know the canisters I had when I was a kid, had tape on the end to keep the film from coming all the way out. Was this always the case? Also on older cameras that did rewind, how did they rewind back into the canister? Was there a switch to wind? I think I remember a camera I had doing that. Thank you for any information you can give.

frank · Nov 2, 2015

You're writing a book?

Chan Tran · Nov 2, 2015

Why write about things that you don't know anything about?

frank · Nov 2, 2015

Hopefully you're just wanting some technical details to enrich a work of fiction.

With 35mm canisters, the camera pulls the film onto a take up spool, but not all the way out. The end is taped to the spool in the canister. When the film ends, the photographer feels that resistance of no more film, he moves a lever, and rewinds the film back into the canister which is light tight.

Jim Jones · Nov 2, 2015

Long ago a few 35mm cameras wound the film from one cassette into another. I believe Exacta may have been the best known of such cameras.

Paul Howell · Nov 2, 2015

Alaskahsm said:
Hi I am writing a book and have questions about older 35 mm cameras. I thought this would be a great place to come. So older standard 35 mm cameras, did they pull the film out of the canisters and then roll around the spool? If they did, did the film come all the way out of the canister and then how did it get back into the canister. I know the canisters I had when I was a kid, had tape on the end to keep the film from coming all the way out. Was this always the case? Also on older cameras that did rewind, how did they rewind back into the canister? Was there a switch to wind? I think I remember a camera I had doing that. Thank you for any information you can give.

Does the book take place in the present or the past? How is the camera being used and who is using it? Does the person who is describing the action know anything about cameras or just describing what he/she is observing?

Alaskahsm · Nov 2, 2015

Yes, sorry, It is a fiction work. The book is set in the present but she is going to use a very special camera for her pictures. It's a science fiction work. The camera is going to be pretty old, but I guess my question was if the older canisters came off the spool in the canister. I had a Minolta when I was younger and the canister did have the resistance, I guess the question is was it always this way.

I guess I can give the whole premise of the work of fiction. A woman is a travel photographer, she uses digital for her job but her real passion is 35mm. She buys an old camera from a strange shop. When she takes pictures with it, it transports her to another time. I just want to make sure I have technical aspects correct for a much older camera.

I did take photography in school and we used 35mm but it has been a while.

MattKing · Nov 2, 2015

It might be best if you defined "much older".

Your "much older" might very well be "quite new" for some of us here!

frank · Nov 2, 2015

A much older camera may also be a (120) roll film camera with no canister, just film moving from the supply roll completely to the take up roll within the camera. Paper backing makes it light tight.

MattKrull · Nov 2, 2015

In no camera that rewinds the film does the film come all the way out of the cassette. There may have been an odd ball camera or two that used a second canister as a take up spool, I think I've seen pictures of one, but I can't tell you what it was. It certainly was not the norm for 35mm. The two Exas I have (the most odd ball SLRs I own, and also the oldest 35mm SLR format) use removeably take-up spools, but they never remove the film entirely from the cassette.
Wat you might want to do is buy a $20 used camera off the local classifieds and use it as the basis for your special camera. No need to reference the camera by name in the book, but you can write about the look, where controls are, what is seen through the view finder, etc, all from holding oen in your hands. No need to buy film or even getting a working example (though that will help prevent confusion).
Pretty much any of the mechanical SLRs from the 60s or 70s will work and be essentially inter-changeable from your point of view. You can also find the full manual for almost all of them with a search on butkus.org. If you aren't sure about a particular camera for sale, look it up at camerpedia.
Depending on how old and special this camera is, you may want to consider rangefinders (such as Leica), but you'll have a harder time getting one to hold some had weird ways of loading film (different from your minolta and its swing open back).

Alaskahsm · Nov 2, 2015

MattKrull said:
In no camera that rewinds the film does the film come all the way out of the cassette.

Perfect. This is the answer I was looking for. I wanted to make sure that older 35mm didn't come out of the cassette. (We were having a debate about this at my writing group, one girl said her grandfathers came out of the cassette and you had to wind it into an airtight canister in a blanket or something. I think she may have been referring to when you actually develop the film (Which would be best in a completely dark room anyway.) I think she just confused me and I needed to make sure my thinking was correct. And what you have said, confirms it.

In any case, how far back in time does 35mm go.

mjs · Nov 2, 2015

Most 35mm cameras unwind film from the canister onto a takeup spool as photos are taken, then when the roll came to an end rewind it back into the original canister. Some cameras (I'm thinking Canon but I'm not entirely sure,) unwound the film from the canister onto the takeup spool when you loaded the film (after closing the camera's back, of course!) and wound it into the original canister as you took the photos. It was said that this protected the negatives you'd already made, if the camera back happened to be opened accidentally.

Mike

ps: Obviously, "old" is relative. This camera was new enough to have a motor drive.

MattKing · Nov 2, 2015

Alaskahsm said:
In any case, how far back in time does 35mm go.

In still photography, about 100 years - look up the Barnack Leica.

The 35mm film stock originated as motion picture film. The first still cameras re-purposed that stock for still photographs. The correct designation for the film is 135. 135 film happens to be 35mm wide.

mweintraub · Nov 2, 2015

There are Rapid based cameras that use 35mm film, shot 24mm X 24mm square, and used the Rapid cartridges that, I believe, would put the exposed film in the other cartridge.

MattKrull · Nov 2, 2015

MattKing said:
In still photography, about 100 years - look up the Barnack Leica.

1925
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Barnack
If you want to base your fictional camera on one of the oldest ones, the Leica III is probably the one to do it. Production started in 1933 and continued until 1960.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leica_III
This was before Leica was a luxury item, so while not inexpensive, a great many were produced and sold. Finding one in a used camera store or even antique shop is not unlikely. These are the cameras I mentioned earlier. It might be good to try and hold one in person, because they aren't like your SLR in use. Everything from focusing and settign up the shot to loading the film (loading the film is done by sliding it in from below, and requires cutting the leader of the film to a certain shape) is different from later cameras like your Minolta.
The oldest 35mm SLR camera is the Exakta (also from Germany, released in 1936). It is slightly odd ball from an engineering perspective (most cameras use two sliding curtains as the shutter. This uses the viewing mirror in place of the first curtain). You can buy one of these off ebay for $40. Because they were manufactured in East Germany, they seem to be pretty rare in North America, but are much more common in Europe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exakta

AgX · Nov 2, 2015

Jim Jones said:
Long ago a few 35mm cameras wound the film from one cassette into another. I believe Exacta may have been the best known of such cameras.

That only was one option for the Exakta.

Not that long ago there were even cameras that as standard transferred 35mm film from one cassette to another, where it remained.

winger · Nov 2, 2015

Alaskahsm said:
Perfect. This is the answer I was looking for. I wanted to make sure that older 35mm didn't come out of the cassette. (We were having a debate about this at my writing group, one girl said her grandfathers came out of the cassette and you had to wind it into an airtight canister in a blanket or something. I think she may have been referring to when you actually develop the film (Which would be best in a completely dark room anyway.) I think she just confused me and I needed to make sure my thinking was correct. And what you have said, confirms it.

In any case, how far back in time does 35mm go.

She may have been talking about a camera that used 120 film. It's larger than 35mm and goes from one reel to another while in the camera. After you finish the roll, you take out the exposed roll, close it tightly, and put the empty spool in the spot to take up the next roll. There were other sizes that worked that way, too.

cliveh · Nov 2, 2015

Alaskahsm said:
Yes, sorry, It is a fiction work.

Then you can write whatever you like about the behaviour of film.

AgX · Nov 2, 2015

The basic idea behind "35mm"/"Type 135" is to rewind the film into the cassette. (As cannister we (today) designate that protective plastic (once metal) container the cassette is sold in.

In the classic 35mm camera the film is rewound manually, after unlocking a gear, by turning a crank on the side where the cassette is located.
Then (early 80s) cameras were introduced that rewound the film automatically when exposed to its end.

AgX · Nov 2, 2015

Alaskahsm said:
I guess I can give the whole premise of the work of fiction. A woman is a travel photographer, she uses digital for her job but her real passion is 35mm. She buys an old camera from a strange shop. When she takes pictures with it, it transports her to another time. I just want to make sure I have technical aspects correct for a much older camera.

There is a movie for children with a quite similar plot. If I remember right, old camera found on the attic by a girl and the camera turns out a means to or a companion for her travel in time.

narsuitus · Nov 2, 2015

Alaskahsm said:
She buys an old camera from a strange shop. When she takes pictures with it, it transports her to another time.

In additon to a Leica, also consider a 1940s Argus C3 as her time travel 35mm camera.

Argus C3 by Narsuitus, on Flickr

Chan Tran · Nov 2, 2015

Sorry! But now I understand your question may be you can let us know how old you want the camera be then we can help you much better. 35mm cameras have evolved quite a bit in 50 or so years.

frank · Nov 2, 2015

There's something magical about folding medium format cameras.

Jim Jones · Nov 2, 2015

Narsuitus's recommendation of an Argus C3 is good. There are many of them still around, and they are often cheap. It used cassettes just like modern 35mm cameras. Contemporary to the earliest C3 was the original cleverly designed and well-built Univex Mercury. It did wind film from a proprietary cassette into another identical cassette. It wasn't as popular as the C3, and was replaced after WWII by the Mercury II while the C3 remained in production. Its accurate and reliable rotary shutter occupied the space needed for a rangefinder and gave the camera a unique hump-back shape. It was also the first production camera to use hot shoe flash sync. If the appearance of the camera is important in the novel, consider a Mercury II or the equally ugly Kodak 35 Camera with rangefinder (made from 1940 to 1951). The Argus C3 was no beauty, either. All used modern film.

Sirius Glass · Nov 2, 2015

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