Questions about Blurriness, Sizing, and Fixer Deterioration in Salt Prints

[D_Quinn]

It is my understanding that citric acid is a preservative so it's not necessary to use it in the sensitizer unless you are planning on delay printing until much later. When I first started salt printing I did use citric it in the sensitizer but in all cases I print right after drying ~ 1.5 hours after I coat and didn't need a preservative and stopped using it. It will precipitate out after a few days but otherwise has no effect.

All of the salt prints shown on my website were fixed in ~1 minute in 10% hypo with either 2mL of household ammonia or 2 gm of sodium carbonate. They look today as good as when I first printed them.

Interesting comments! I read that citric acid is added to prevent fogging in the image, but have you found that you don’t have fogging issues even without adding citric acid?

It seems like you fix for a rather short time—how long do you wash afterward? Do you use hypo clear?

Great images in your gallery!

 

[koraks]

Thank you! That makes sense. I see now that if you don't mix in a separate dish, it doesn’t blend properly. I also need to make sure not to use more silver nitrate than necessary!

Exactly. Measuring out the correct quantities is something we've touched upon before. You now understand why I do it the way I explained.

citric acid is added to prevent fogging in the image

That's correct. Fogging depends also on the paper used; the same is true for fixing times. I don't know what papers @Tom Taylor uses; perhaps they don't fog easily and fix (and wash) rapidly. I know that on the papers I use, I need to add a little citric acid to prevent fog and fix + wash longer.

 

[Tom Taylor]

Citric acid lowers the pH and extends the time you have before exposure. Since I always expose within a hour or two after coating it is not necessry. IIRC, I once coated 2 sheets without citric acid and exposed one when it was dry. I left the 2d sheet in the paper safe and over a relatively short period of time (a day?) it developed a stain where I had coated. I presume that was "fog." If I had used citric acid it would have extended the time to use it.

I learned to print salted paper from the 2d Edition of Alternative Printing Process which, for various reasons given, recommends using a maximum time of 1-minute to fix in 10% hypo solution. After fixing I wash the print in running water for 5 minutes or so, and another 30 minutes after a bath of hypo clear.

 

[fgorga]

Citric acid lowers the pH and extends the time you have before exposure. Since I always expose within a hour or two after coating it is not necessry. IIRC, I once coated 2 sheets without citric acid and exposed one when it was dry. I left the 2d sheet in the paper safe and over a relatively short period of time (a day?) it developed a stain where I had coated. I presume that was "fog." If I had used citric acid it would have extended the time to use it.

I think that we are all saying the same thing... citric acid prevents fogging of the highlights. This fogging is highly time (after coating) and paper dependent. My take is that it is cheap and easy to add citric acid to the coating mix and it does not seem to have any deleterious effect, so I add it as a matter of routine.

I learned to print salted paper from the 2d Edition of Alternative Printing Process which, for various reasons given, recommends using a maximum time of 1-minute to fix in 10% hypo solution. After fixing I wash the print in running water for 5 minutes or so, and another 30 minutes after a bath of hypo clear.

As with pretty much everything alt process there are many ways to successfully make and process a print none of which are "better" or "worse" (define as you may). There are also even more ways to fail!!!

 

[D_Quinn]

@Tom Taylor
@fgorga
Thanks for the informative answers! I’ll pay attention not to ruin my prints by shortening the final wash.

 

[Tom Taylor]

According to the author of the Alternative Printing book, over-fixing can result in image deterioration and recommends not exceeding 60 seconds. (I believe he wrote that he found as little as 10 seconds were sufficient with salt prints.) Adding ammonia or sodium carbonate to the fixer counteracts the tendency of the fixer to degrade the image. The recommended fixing time for silver gelatin prints with TF-5 is 30 seconds for RC and 60 seconds for fiber so 60 seconds for a salt print using 10% Sodium Thiosulfate sounds about right.

 

[koraks]

This is not to argue or be flippant, but I think there's reason to be cautious with salt print fixer times. As I argued before, I think it greatly depends on the paper used. Moreover, unlike in an RC or even a FB print, poorly soluble silver salts very easily embed themselves deep within the mat of paper fibers. In RC paper, the PE lining prevents this entirely; in FB papers, the gelatin and baryta layers also act as prevention. In FB papers, it can be expected that most of the silver salts that end up in the fiber base are actually carried there by the fixer (poorly soluble salts tend to not migrate very easily) and are thus easily soluble salts to begin with.
I've so far not seen any ill effects of extended fixing times (e.g. 5 minutes) with dilute C41 rapid fixer (which is nearly pH neutral, very slightly acidic around pH6.5).

As they say - YMMV, test thoroughly, and decide on the workflow that works best for you.

 

[D_Quinn]

Thank you both for the advice. I'm still new to salt printing, so there’s a lot I’m still figuring out. I plan to try different fixing times with test prints to observe the effects on the final result.

 

[nmp]

Thank you both for the advice. I'm still new to salt printing, so there’s a lot I’m still figuring out. I plan to try different fixing times with test prints to observe the effects on the final result.

I agree that one must do their own testing because everyone's process environment is different. In my case, I found that initially when I fixed my salt prints for short durations, my prints developed some serious stains over a very short period of time. So I did a study to see the effect of fixation time and what I found that a much longer fixing time was required (for my conditions.) I shared the summary of this study here:

CD-POP: Chemically Developed-out Salted Paper Printing Using Vitamin C Developer

The Background: Developed-out salted paper prints go as far back as 1850’s, credited to Louis Désiré Blanquart-Evrard. Typically it involved a short exposure forming a hint of an image on salted paper followed by development with gallic acid and some silver nitrate to facilitate the physical...

www.photrio.com

I also found that no bleaching or loss of DMAX occurred as a result of long fixing as it is shown in the attached chart.

I also studied the washing time post fixation with the use of standard residual fixer test (using silver nitrate solution) and found that a 40 minutes (10 minutes x 4 in stationery baths) was required to remove traces of the fixer.

Again, I don't want to suggest that everyone should use same process conditions, but it is better to do your own testing to figure out best set of parameters under your own process conditions.

:Niranjan.

 

[D_Quinn]

I also studied the washing time post fixation with the use of standard residual fixer test (using silver nitrate solution) and found that a 40 minutes (10 minutes x 4 in stationery baths) was required to remove traces of the fixer.

Thank you for the information!
The experiment on the linked site is fascinating. Once I get a bit more proficient with traditional salt printing, I’d love to try my hand at Developed-out Salted Printing as well. I hope Hypo clears can cut the washing time in half...

 

[nmp]

Thank you for the information!
The experiment on the linked site is fascinating. Once I get a bit more proficient with traditional salt printing, I’d love to try my hand at Developed-out Salted Printing as well. I hope Hypo clears can cut the washing time in half...

You are welcome.

My quoted washing times were after hypoclear treatment. The whole sequence is in one of the other posts in that link.

:Niranjan.

 

[D_Quinn]

You are welcome.

My quoted washing times were after hypoclear treatment. The whole sequence is in one of the other posts in that link.

:Niranjan.

Oh. After the hypoclear treatment! Then it will use a lot of water…
I’ll take a closer look at your posting in the other link.

Many thanx!

 

[nmp]

Oh. After the hypoclear treatment! Then it will use a lot of water…
I’ll take a closer look at your posting in the other link.

Many thanx!

I only use about 700ml of water for a 5"x8" print each time - repeating it 4 times for a total of about 3 liters.

:Niranjan.

 

[D_Quinn]

I only use about 700ml of water for a 5"x8" print each time - repeating it 4 times for a total of about 3 liters.

:Niranjan.

Thanks that saves a lot of water.

 

[lmans]

My first post as I stumbling across this site, so....an honor.

Now....it seems to me that, like in all photography, that there is a right way and there is a wrong way but who decides what is right and wrong is up to the eye of the beholder. Given that, I find that my salt printing process is very 'rough and ready', just like my film development itself is. To me, perfection is imperfection. While reading this entire thread, I can tell my images and likes simply don't belong. Am I the only one who thinks this way?

 

[koraks]

While reading this entire thread, I can tell my images and likes simply don't belong.

Oh, I'm sure they do belong - but I understand and recognize the feeling of swimming against the current.
Keep in mind that what you read on a forum like this is the opinion/ramblings of a vocal minority. Plenty of people probably feel exactly the same way you do, but may never say it on a forum like this one. I'd welcome the 'alternative' view, though!