Questioned by the FBI and Local Police

[copake_ham]

.....

In short, I'm far less worried about being questioned than Americans seem to be, but I'm also far less likely to actually be questioned. Interesting dichotomy, isn't it?

Jim,

I would hazard to say that most Americas are no more worried about being questioned than are Canadians. Threads like this tend to play to the extremes.

I've been shooting cameras here in the US for almost as long as you are old. I've never been stopped, questioned or challenged in doing so anywhere.

Admittedly I use discretion. For instance, my nephew is a US Marine helicopter pilot. We just visited with him last week before he was deployed to Iraq. He took us onto Camp Pendleton to show us the stuff he flies.

I had a camera with me and asked him if it was alright to take pics. He said there were no restrictions and I did so. Sometimes its wise to be the first to ask the questions.

As I said in my first post here - I was not with the OP and cannot know what occurred. I can only know what he told us. There are at least two sides to every story - so we have, at best, only half of the info we need to make a determination of whether what purportedly occurred was reasonable or out-of-line.

But at the end of the day, I don't think most Americans are more worried about be questioned than you, as a Canadian, are. The vast majority of the people here also think the system is inherently fair and recognize that members of law enforcement are here to protect us.

We are, perhaps, more vocal as to our individual rights than Canadians because of how our nation came to be (i.e. via rebellion from the prior authority) and how we early on enshrined our individual rights into our Constitution. But that vocal display should be viewed as a strength, not a weakness.

 

[MP_Wayne]

"Papers please!" Just a polite interrogation.
Or what if you'd excercised your constitutional rights and said "I'm doing nothing illegal, buzz off, or at least let me consult my lawyer before I give you any information."

I cannot speak for US or New Mexico laws, but coming to Canada will not likely provide any further protection - in fact, there may be fewer protections here.

In April 2003, I was accosted by two of Calgary's finest (they stopped the patrol car and grilled me) whilst taking pictures on a busy street corner with a stubby Vivitar 600mm Catadioptric lens (not a long barrelled telephoto) on a monopod (not even a tripod). The reason for the corner is that I had borrowed the lens for a test roll from a camera store within sight of where I was accosted. There was nothing of security significance on any of the corners: a self service gasoline station, a casual dining restaurant, a small trailer office selling condos in a coming development on that site, and the Student Union building (well away from the street corner) of a local technical college. When I challenged the demand for my ID, I was told for "suspicious activity during times of terrorist threat". I politely explained I had borrow the lens from the Store and was running a test roll through it to decide if I wanted to purchase it. They still wanted ID despite no complaint, no criminal act on my part, and not even looking for someone who looked like me for some other incident. If I had refused, one was getting ready to detain and cuff me. I had nothing to hide, so I provided my Driver's License (which I was lucky to have not given to the store as security for the lens - they knew me).

I believe that both the USA and Canadian governments passed legislation for significantly more flexible means for law enforcement personnel to check you. The "bar" for "probable cause" seems to have plummeted to "you are doing something out of the ordinary", and taking photos consistently seems to qualify. I think you will find common sense has disappeared along with your liberties.

I agree with an earlier poster questioning why a terrorist would use a 4x5 view camera to gather intel if said terrorist wanted to remain undetected. Clearly, law enforcement needs a course in "Effective Photographer Harrassment Techniques - Tips to use and Traps to Avoid". ;-)

 

[JBrunner]

I just keep a cheap flash card taped to the inside of my bellows. When accosted, I just take the back off the camera, pull it out, and hand it to them... the card contains ????.

 

[jeroldharter]

I am a mostly libertarian, free market capitalist...

But all of these hissy fits about the police, FBI, etc are a bit much. God forbid that a policeman would ask what I am doing hanging around a building. I don't think I look particularly suspicious, but the same people opposed to the police asking any questions are also opposed to the police using any common sense and profiling potential suspects. Therefore I guess innocent photographers are the only ones left.

I have walked into our state capitol building with my 4x5 camera and taken alot of photos for as long as 2 hours at a time. Several people ask me what I am doing. People are curious about my 4x5 camera. Some don't know what it is. One security guard asked what I was doing and loaned me a pen. It did not ruin my day. I was not a victim. I was not traumatized. I was not living in a police state. Get a grip.

 

[Sean]

My new dark cloth has all but solved these issues..

 

[Christopher Walrath]

'The government says we're safe. Go back to sleep'

 

[Kevin Caulfield]

My new dark cloth has all but solved these issues..

Yes, but doesn't it get very cold in there?

 

[removed account4]

My new dark cloth has all but solved these issues..

i keep thinking of agent larabee in get smart ..
someone puts money in the slot,
then the soda machine says "ouch"

 

[copake_ham]

I just keep a cheap flash card taped to the inside of my bellows. When accosted, I just take the back off the camera, pull it out, and hand it to them... the card contains ????.

Geez Jason...how often do you get "accosted"?

You live in the middle of "no where" UT.

Are you suggesting that our "duty bound" Home Security folk are chasing after you instead of going after the "real" bad guys?

If this is true, I demand a tax refund!

There ain't no way I'm gonna pay to "accost" some long-haired, white guy dude in UT with a LF camera.

Dammit!

I want my money back!

 

[removed account4]

Dammit!

I want my money back!

george you should have asked for your refund a long time ago ...

it is unfortunate, but this treatment of regular law-abiding people isn't much
different than what happens to regular law-abiding people with skin color on a day to day basis.

 

[JBrunner]

Geez Jason...how often do you get "accosted"?

You live in the middle of "no where" UT.

Are you suggesting that our "duty bound" Home Security folk are chasing after you instead of going after the "real" bad guys?

If this is true, I demand a tax refund!

There ain't no way I'm gonna pay to "accost" some long-haired, white guy dude in UT with a LF camera.

Dammit!

I want my money back!

Never had a hassle in the back country, except for a rancher who assumed I was a surveyor, and was generally ticked off about the progress gettin the road paved. Well, that and some marijuana growers, which was actually scary. My buddy Kimber set'em straight. In Salt Lake City, it has happened many times, as in dozens. Mostly security guards accosting me on public property. I tell them to call the cops. They never do, or at least, they never show up.IDK. I did have a real police man aproach me, bu he was more enthusiatic about the camera, than anything else. Said they got a call about a man with a bazooka. He drove by, saw I was photographing, and said he only stopped because he wanted to see the camera. He was a MF guy. Nowadays I just wear an orange vest. Seems I can do about anything in that. They just think I'm a surveyor.

 

[RobC]

According to a story in this week's Rolling Stone it's closer to 3 Trillion. But that's another topic I guess.

Yup, but it makes interesting reading...

http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu\research\wpaper.NSF\rwp\RWP06-002\$File\rwp_06_002_Bilmes_SSRN.pdf

 

[Mahler_one]

I think Mike above has "it" completely correct.....no harm, no foul. Doing their job in a polite manner.

Ed

 

[Shmoo]

...Anyway, you handled it very well and that's good. Yeah, it kind of ruins the day, but then again, those agents were actually most likely doing you a great favor.

I agree with Alex...you handled it quite well to your credit. I think that you need to have a little more patience these days to handle these situations.

On the other hand, I keep wondering if security personnel haven't been mis-educated about cameras and their capabilities...and whether or not someone should put together an educational piece for them. Something like "if you see someone who has taken a half an hour to set up what looks like a small accordian perched on a tall 3 legged device, it probably isn't dangerous, and neither is the photographer." Just a thought...

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

If we can keep this thread on the topic of dealing with law enforcement queries while photographing, we might be able to leave it open without banning people from the thread or moving it to the SoapBox.

 

[Sirius Glass]

If we can keep this thread on the topic of dealing with law enforcement queries while photographing, we might be able to leave it open without banning people from the thread or moving it to the SoapBox.

Thank you for cleaning up the insulting posts.

Steve

 

[c6h6o3]

Wrong. And yes, it probably won't affect you until it is too late to do anything, because the people who speak up will be gone first.

I have more faith in the Constitution and in my fellow countrymen than to believe that we will devolve into full blown fascism. It's just not in our nature.

I think the scales will tip back toward protection of liberty in the very near future. Congress has enacted all kinds of unconstitutional laws in the past which have been nullified by the Supreme Court.

We've always had abuses of the law. Even President Lincoln suspended habeas corpus for a time. But the Constitution endures.

 

[Zach in Israel]

Being stopped by official types

Never had a hassle in the back country, except for a rancher who assumed I was a surveyor, and was generally ticked off about the progress gettin the road paved. Well, that and some marijuana growers, which was actually scary. My buddy Kimber set'em straight. In Salt Lake City, it has happened many times, as in dozens. Mostly security guards accosting me on public property. I tell them to call the cops. They never do, or at least, they never show up.IDK. I did have a real police man aproach me, bu he was more enthusiatic about the camera, than anything else. Said they got a call about a man with a bazooka. He drove by, saw I was photographing, and said he only stopped because he wanted to see the camera. He was a MF guy. Nowadays I just wear an orange vest. Seems I can do about anything in that. They just think I'm a surveyor.

I once had an army jeep drive up to my astronomy site and see what I was doing. I was out in the middle of the west bank with my kids and some of their friends observing and a few guys in uniform with M-16's turn up. They asked what we were doing. One of the kids explained we were doing some astronomy, we may have offered them a look. They said "have a nice night" and left.

Of course I also drive threw an army check point on my way into Tel Aviv every morning. I think in 2 years of driving into Tel Aviv or Jerusalem I have been asked for an ID maybe 3 times.

 

[Curt]

My point was that the officers that questioned you might have had a good reason to do so. Just today there was a shooting at a bus stop in LA with multiple injuries and that's no joke.

 

[Trevor Crone]

On the other hand, I keep wondering if security personnel haven't been mis-educated about cameras and their capabilities...and whether or not someone should put together an educational piece for them. Something like "if you see someone who has taken a half an hour to set up what looks like a small accordian perched on a tall 3 legged device, it probably isn't dangerous, and neither is the photographer." Just a thought...

That reminds me......a friend I was with took the sting out a situation with a couple of security guards by telling them I was setting up a bird (nest) box....boy did they laugh. So a bit of humour with a smile can go a long way.

 

[haris]

I was questioned two times because had camera in my hands and I wasn't actually photographing at those times. Once by police few days after 9/11 close USAID office, second time by security of OHR close to OHR building acompanied with local police.I wrote few times about that here, so I will not repeat those stories. I wasn't feel threatened, but I was angry. I was tryng to explain them that if I would do anything dangerous I would use long telephoto lenses from hidden place and wouldn't be so visible, and in any case, I live 30 years in this town and I know those bulidings and their surrounding better than they knows them, so I don't need to photograph if I would do anything bad. That is, it is stupid to questioned me, and while they waste time quesetioned me, somebody really dangerous maybe at same time make photographs from hidden place. I wasn't much polite, but wasn't insulting police. I did insult security from OHR, thou

I think they understood me, because they apologize to me and leave me alone

I think police and other security people often "harrassing" people just to justify themselves. If they can't do anything to real dangerous people, they showing off like they doing something by harrassing innocent people. And after that, they wonder why people (atleast here) don't like them...

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Two city park police were watching me very attentively while I made this photograph with a handheld 1950s Voigtlander Bessa II--

There were lots of other people around. They didn't say anything to me; I didn't say anything to them; and when I was done, they moved on.

Let that be a message to guys like BrianK and Bill Schwab, that if we don't photograph our nation's decaying piers and wooden pilings, the terrorists have already won.

 

[Early Riser]

I think Mike above has "it" completely correct.....no harm, no foul. Doing their job in a polite manner.

Ed

Ed, photography is greatly influenced by timing. I have missed far too many images that could have had great value to me by mere seconds. All it takes is a cloud to move. I have only been questioned a few times by security or police, but it usually happens when I am in a public place, camera set up on tripod and I am waiting, sometimes for hours, for that right moment. The last thing I need right then is to take my attention off my work to answer a bunch of questions, and pull out my ID, when I am doing nothing wrong and hassling me does not contribute to national security.

Let's be real here. If someone wants imagery of a target they can easily get as many stills or even video using a far less obvious camera. Also building plans, surveys etc, are usually public record and anyone can go in and request a copy. Does anyone really think that someone with a view camera on a tripod is a method that the terrorists would consider using? In the meantime, while the cops are hassling me, they are not using their time to deal with real threats, or the general safety of the public. There are 30,000 guns deaths every year in the US and 40,000 traffic deaths. Maybe they should spend more time in other areas?

 

[JBrunner]

Two more terrorists in my bran flakes this morning....

 

[Captain Bedworthy]

I am heartened to see so much intelligent discussion on this topic. My own take is fight the "F.B.Intelligence" with intelligence. As was mentioned, a bulky 6X9 is not the terrorists first choice. Even less, a 4X5" or larger. And if a hand held meter is around your neck, what could they possibly do to justify giving you grief? I have been close in at sites where police and emergency personnel were working, and been asked who I was and what I was doing. I'm not one to suffer fools well, and after answering the first question with a flash of a press pass, and the second question by holding up my camera, I smile and keep shooting. This annoys them, but I do not care much. The bullies that harass photographers in the name of "Homeland Seig-curity" need to continually be reminded that last time we looked, this was America, not 1939 Berlin.