Question on useful lifespan of Kodafix and other chemicals.

[TheTrailTog]

Please excuse the stupid newbie question I just recently started processing B&W film and so far have been running single use on all my chemicals. My current workflow is:

Kodak HC-110 Dilution H
Kodak Indicator Stop Bath
Kodak Kodafix
(rinse)
Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent
(rinse)
Kodak Photo-Flo

I want to start reusing my chemicals to save on expenses. Now, please correct me if I'm wrong but, for reusing developer I need replenisher and with the Indicator Stop Bath it's good until it changes blue/purple. Here's where I get lost. From reading, fixer can be reused. Looking at the tech docs on Kodak's site, it gives the useful life of Kodafix in sheets per gallon. I've been processing my film in a Paterson Super System 4, 2 reel (35mm) set-up. How do I know when the fixer has been exhausted? Same goes for the Hypo Clearing Agent, it gives useful life as sheets per gallon. How do I know when it's life expectancy has been exhausted. I'm not too worried about the Photo-Flo as that seems like it will last forever but, can this be reused as well? I'm not sure if it makes a difference but, I've been keeping my mixes in Chem Seal 1 quart bottles at room temp. Thanks in advance for any help/advice you could give me

Happy Shooting,
Aaron

 

[Michel Hardy-Vallée]

For the fixer, get yourself a little bottle of Edwal Hypo-Check or any other similar solution (google fixer exhaustion...). These products create a cloudy precipitate when there is too much silver in the fixer (how much? no idea).

For hypo-clearing, you have two choices: either you drop it, or you use it only once per session. It degrades quickly in air, and no, there is no way to assess its level of exhaustion.

In fact, if you switch from Kodafix to a non-hardening fixer (like the Ilford one), you won't need hypo-clearing at all for film.

Unless you process large amounts of film in deep tanks, I would not suggest you go the replenishement route. HC-110 is cheap as dirt, even used one-shot.

 

[TheTrailTog]

Thanks mhv, the help is much appreciated Dead Link Removed I need to place another order soon. I'll have to pick up a bottle.

Thanks Again,
Aaron

 

[Michel Hardy-Vallée]

Yep, that's the juice. Just put a drop or two in your fixer, and that's as good an indication as you could get this side of the laboratory.

 

[Michel Hardy-Vallée]

BTW, is class over?

 

[TheTrailTog]

Thanks mhv And no, I don't think class will ever be over I've only run 6 rolls of 35mm so far so there are PLENTY of classes left...LOL I've already learned a couple good lessons... 1. I redid the mirror foam on a Nikkormat EL I got. The mirror slap sounded pretty loud I thought but, went with it anyway. Whole roll was out of focus/soft I'm assuming from the vibration from mirror slap. Redid with thicker foam today and seems much better now. I'll take it out tomorrow to see if that helped... 2. Impatience does not pay off when it comes to developing negs. I had 2 rolls of TMax 100 to develop but, it was hot (about 76/77 room temp) and I had a couple drinks and ran them in the tank. I don't think I compensated enough for the temp and they seemed rather greyed out. Then again, these were my first TMax rolls so who knows but, they just seem slightly "off".

Regardless, I'm having a blast and was hooked from the moment I unwound my first reel! The DSLR has already been sent away and am now shopping for a MF set-up I'll be hanging around here for a while so hopefully you guys won't get sick of the "newbie" questions

 

[Michel Hardy-Vallée]

Well, I hope you will enjoy being with your classmates Gubo & Palanka...

Don't forget to search the forums, you'll be surprised by the number of inquiries that have some leads in there!

 

[TheTrailTog]

Well, at least I know I'm not alone...LOL I post primarily over at photographyreview.com and I have a friend there that I'm learning along with which helps. As for searching, no worries, I've lost count how many searches I have run here and have found SOOOO much info. It's actually almost overload for someone like me who for the most part has no idea what they are doing. You know the saying about opinions and a... well, you know. It's hard to know which way to go. For instance, right now I'm looking for a TLR set-up in the $300 - $400 range, including a meter. I mean do I go with the tried and true Rolleicord that most likely will need to be CLA'd for best performance or do I go for a Yashicamat 124G that for that price shouldn't need any CLA and be good to go off the bat or do I go for the bulky, heavy Mamiya C-series which will offer interchangeable lenses? It's hard because I live in a small town and don't even know anyone that shoots anything more the P&S digital so it's not like I can hand;e any of these systems in person. I have to rely solely on online opinions

Sorry for the rambling, just gets confusing and frustrating at times, though I guess it's all part of learning. I suppose all that matters is despite it all I'm having a blast

Happy Shooting,
Aaron

 

[Michel Hardy-Vallée]

Ha, I know the feeling of overwhelming information! If you have 300-400$ bucks to invest on a camera, I would suggest you go shop at KEH or a similar reputable dealer. There's plenty of stuff to choose from, a warranty, and the assurance that their material will actually work.

eBay is nice, but I don't really use it for anything above 150$ (which is as much as I could wilfully let myself being robbed).

 

[Neal]

Hi Aaron,

I would like to add one more little test for your fixer. Use the undeveloped cutoffs from 35mm rolls to test how quickly the film turns clear (not including the color of the sensitizing dyes). If it takes more than about 3 minutes (this is my personal rule of thumb based on experience not science) then mix up a new batch. Make sure you fix for at least double the time for clearing.

Welcome to the dark side.

Neal Wydra

 

[TheTrailTog]

I've been pretty lucky with Ebay so far. That being said, I am already taking the route you suggested accept through Adorama where I do all my shopping. I sent in my DSLR and my AF lenses for trade-in. Got the email that they arrived safely and should have a quote today or tomorrow. I know I won't get as much as if I sold it myself but this way is much less of a PITA and they arrange and pay for pick up of my stuff and if I don't like the quote, then free return shipping. Figured why not. They have a few TLR's I'm looking at. Primarily either a Yashica 124G or a Rolleifelx Automat. I don't know though, I can't decide which...LOL I'll just have to flip a coin and pull the trigger one way or the other

 

[TheTrailTog]

Hi Aaron,

I would like to add one more little test for your fixer. Use the undeveloped cutoffs from 35mm rolls to test how quickly the film turns clear (not including the color of the sensitizing dyes). If it takes more than about 3 minutes (this is my personal rule of thumb based on experience not science) then mix up a new batch. Make sure you fix for at least double the time for clearing.

Welcome to the dark side.

Neal Wydra

Thank you very much Neal I'll give that shot.

And, thanks for the welcome to the dark side. It's really fun and cozy over here. Feels like home

Aaron

 

[Neanderman]

Get some distilled water and mix your Photo-Flo/wetting agent in it. You can reuse it, but be aware that it will gradually pick up salts from the wash water, making it more likely to leave deposits. It will also pick up dust from the air, so you can't use it forever. A good way to keep it fresh would be to mix up a new batch of it each time you mix up a new batch of fixer.

The other trick to extending fixer life is to use two baths. The first bath removes most of the unexposed silver, then the second bath removes the rest. When the first bath becomes exhausted, replace it with bath number two and mix up a new bath number two.

You can repeat this cycle a few times (I'd have to look to see how many...), after which you should mix up two fresh baths.

This can be especially helpful with the tabular grain films (T-Max, Ilford Delta) as they don't fix as quickly as older technology films do. The second bath also helps remove the magenta tint that T-Max films have a tendency to come out of the fixer with.

 

[Snapshot]

I've recently have come to the conclusion that reusing chemicals is generally a false economy, especially with regards developers. For the sake of consistency and reliability, you should not replenish your HC-110, as it is really an inexpensive developer and their wouldn't be much in the way of savings. Replenishing adds needless complexity versus using HC-110 one-shot. As for wetting agents, I would advise against their reuse as well as you will get contaminants in them and they'll eventually find their way to your valuable film. As soon as my other chemistry exhibit any degradation, I replace them.

If you are concerned with standardizing a process and maximizing value, you may want to mix your own chemicals at some future point. You won't have to worry about them being modified by the manufacturer or simply discontinued and you mix them fresh to your specifications. A little more work, yes, but well worth effort and there are some savings to boot.

 

[TheTrailTog]

Thank you very much for the input

Neanderman, could you please explain the two bath method? Now I have been fixing for about 4 minutes. With a 2 bath method would I do like 2 minutes in the older fixer and then another 2 in the fresher batch? Is that the basic concept? I'll see what I can find searching but, any explanation you could provide would be appreciated

Snapshot for the time being, or at least until I get more comfortable with film, I want to stick with a stabilized process. At this point, I have no plans to reuse the HC-110 or Photo-Flo. I've been using dilution H and given the price of the 2 chemicals, I can't see any benefit to reusing either at this point. My main interest was the possibility of reusing Kodafix, the Indicator Stop Bath, and possibly the Hypo Clearing Agent. Though, the Hypo is pretty cheap as well. I've been looking to pick up the "Darkroom Cookbook" to try and learn more about the chemicals used. Any recommendations on good resources for learning about darkroom chemicals?

Thanks Again Everyone,
Aaron

 

[Rick Jones]

I have used Kodafix for my negatives for years mixing a quart (1:3) at a time. A strip of adhesive tape lets me keep careful track of the number of rolls fixed and when mixed. I keep pretty careful tabs on clearing time after noting how long a particular film takes to clear in a fresh mix. As it starts to approach twice the time in a fresh mix I discard it. Kodak suggests a shelf life of 2 months so at that point I do a clearing test before every roll. Indicator stop is so cheap I mix and discard after each roll plus this means one less bottle to store.

 

[Bob F.]

Probably the easiest (but most expensive) test method is to use Tetenal fixer test strips (http://www.silverprint.co.uk/dark36.html - a UK site but presumably they are available worldwide) which measure the silver content of the fixer and it's pH with coloured bands.

I also do clearing time tests on film. Make up some fresh fixer and drop an undeveloped piece of film in the fixer and agitate it. See how long it takes to clear. Mark this time on the working fixer container. Do the same test with the working fixer and the same type of film before each new film developing session and when the amount of time to clear has doubled dispose of the fixer and make up new fixer and start over.

Have fun, Bob.

 

[Snapshot]

Any recommendations on good resources for learning about darkroom chemicals?

Thanks Again Everyone,
Aaron

The book you quoted is a great resources. "The Film Developing Cookbook" is a related book that is also useful for film developing specifics. There are also some data guide books that would be useful.

 

[jeroldharter]

I agree that re-use of chemicals is a false economy unless you are in the darkroom everyday and doing a higher volume of work.

I would stick with diluted, one-shot developers. For economy, try to find a 16 oz bottle of glacial acetic acid and dilute that for one shot use. Fixer is usually the most expensive item. I use Heico NH-5 which I buy in the 1 gallon size with hardener which will fix alot of film and lasts along time until it is diluted 1:4 for one-shot use. If I am doing a series of processing runs, then I dump half of the working strength fixer and replenish that but then dump at the end of the day. For hypoclear, I think that Heico Permwash is economical, especially if you buy the gallon size. It lasts along time as the dilution is just 3 oz per gallon of working strength solution. Likewise, a 16 oz bottle of Photoflo seems to last a lifetime even with one shot use.

One shot use also eliminates alot of staining, precipitates, and cleaning chores.

 

[Monophoto]

Aaron -

My process is similar to yours. My suggestions are:

1. If you are using HC110 in dilution H, you are using a mighty small amount of developer in a significant amount of water. I don't know what it the absolute minimum amount of developer syrup required per roll/sheet of film, but I have a suspicion that at dilution H, you are not far from that threshold. And frankly, the cost per roll/sheet of using HC110 at that dilution is pennies. Therefore, I would suggest using it as a one-shot for maximum control over the process.

2. You are using an indicator stop, and you can save it for reuse until the color changes from yellow to purple (although because the stop is used in total darkness, how will you know when it changes color?). But you don't really need to use an acid stop in processing film - if you want to economize, use plain water and just agitate continuously. But use the water as a one-shot stop.

3. I also save my film fixer for reuse. I use rapid fixer (usually Sprint because that's what the local dealer stocks), and the standard fixing time is 3 minutes. The indicator of exhaustion of a fixer is fixing time - when it takes more than 4 minutes to fix the film, then I dump the fixer. Manufacturers also provide usage guidelines on the package in terms of the number of rolls/sheets per gallon, or you can buy a solution to test the efficacy of fixer. But as a practical matter, watching for how long it takes to clear the film is really the best way to know when it is becoming exhausted.

4. Hypoclear - this stuff deteriorates fairly rapidly (days) after being mixed, so it's a good idea to use it as a one-shot. There are two ways to economize here. One is to mix it at a higher dilution - say, twice the amount of water recommended by the manufacturer. Another is to use a simple sodium sulfite bath (20 g per liter) - that's the active ingredient in hypoclear, and its not very expensive in bulk from a supplier like Artcraft Chemical or Photographers Formulary.

5. Photoflo - this stuff is also very cheap, but the issue is not the cost of the chemical but rather the cost of the water that you mix it with - you should use demineralized water. The simplest solution is to purchase distilled water at the supermarket. We have a reverse osmosis drinking water filtration system at our house, and I use the water from that, but I also save the solution for reuse. In theory, you can save it forever since its use causes physical changes on the film rather than chemical changes - there is no 'exhaustion' phenomenon. However, it probably makes sense to limit how long you keep it (in terms of time, not rolls of film) to prevent growth of mold or other nasty things that could contaminate your film. By the way, ALWAYS mix photoflo to a higher dilution than recommended to prevent deposition of scum on your film.

 

[TheTrailTog]

Thank you very much everyone for all the help! Truly appreciated

Happy Shooting,
Aaron

 

[Neanderman]

Neanderman, could you please explain the two bath method? Now I have been fixing for about 4 minutes. With a 2 bath method would I do like 2 minutes in the older fixer and then another 2 in the fresher batch? Is that the basic concept?

That is the concept, exactly.

Any recommendations on good resources for learning about darkroom chemicals?

I would second the recommendation for the Darkroom Cookbook.

Ed

 

[TheTrailTog]

Thanks again Ed