Question about Tetenal E-6 chemistry in Jobo Processor

[ZoneIII]

In the past, I always used full-blown 6-step chemistry for my E6 processing. Of course, the Kodak 6-step kit is no longer available and I finally ran out of my supply so I'm going to give the 3-step Tetenal kit a try. However, I noticed a discrepancy in the processing info that comes with the Tetenal E-6 kit and the Jobo recommendations for using the Tetenal kit in a Jobo processor.

Tetenal lists a color developer time of 6 to 8 minutes depending on how may films are being processed. However, both the Jobo manual and Jobo information online say the color developer step should be 4 minutes in a Jobo processor. In fact, it also shows a CD step of 4 minutes for 6-step kits as well and that's what I always used with my 6-step chemistry.

The only things I can think of to explain this is that 1) The Tetenal 3-step E6 kits have been changed since my Jobo manual was printed. But Jobo is back in business and their online info also says 4 minutes although that info may be outdated. 2) Jobo just has a mistake in their info for the Tetenal kit. But they also show 4 minutes for the 6-step kit and that worked fine for me. 3) Tetenal has an error in their manual - very unlikely.

Can someone who processes E6 film with the Tetenal E-6 kits clarify?

 

[Bob Carnie]

Omar from Cat Labs will be able to fill in the blanks. he usually responds here.

 

[rowghani]

Hey man, I switched to the jobo instructions and have never looked back. They work much better for me than the tetenal ones. Hope that helps.

 

[Rudeofus]

I think the Tetenal instructions are meant for inversion tanks, not for rotating processors. IIRC they specifically state that with rotating processors you need to figure out the correct times. Since Jobo did that figuring out for us already, we might as well use their recommended times with their processors.

 

[ZoneIII]

Thanks, rowghani. That's what I need to hear but I hope I hear from others too. It sounds like Omar would be a good one to get a response from. 6 to 8 minutes (Tetenal) compared to Jobo's recommendation of 4 minutes is a BIG difference. I'm going to wait a bit and see if I get any more responses to give me a bit more confidence about this because I have a lot of film from a recent trip and I don't want to ruin it. This is the first time I'll be using 3-step E6 chemistry.

BTW, it makes no difference as far as my question goes but maybe I should have mentioned that I'm processing mostly sheet film but also a little 120 film.

 

[Joel_L]

Hi,

I just grabbed the manual for my CPE2+. For E6 three step it says FD 6:30 and 7:30 for Tetenal and Fuji film, CD is 4:00, and BLIX is 6:00. In the text is says the FD time can range 5:30 to 7:30

 

[ZoneIII]

Hi,

I just grabbed the manual for my CPE2+. For E6 three step it says FD 6:30 and 7:30 for Tetenal and Fuji film, CD is 4:00, and BLIX is 6:00. In the text is says the FD time can range 5:30 to 7:30

Yes, I have that information. What I'm concerned about is only the color developer time. It looks like I should just go with the Jobo time (4.00) but I'm going to check back to this thread to see if I get any more responses before I start developing the film just in case. I have a lot of film to develop - mostly 4x5".

 

[ZoneIII]

That could be it. However, the Tetenal times (in the instructions that come with the E6 kit) say their times are for "Rotary Discard" - whatever that is. I assumed that probably meant one shot rotary processing but I wasn't sure.

I don't see anything in the Tetenal instructions that says anything about figuring out the correct times for rotary processing but maybe I missed it. I'll read it again.

Dumb question: What is IIRC?

It sounds like the Jobo times are the way to go but I still want to be sure before I process the load of film I have. I finished all my b&w but I process that in trays. Now it's on to the color film and I just want to be sure about the correct CD time.

 

[fdonadio]

IIRC = If I Recall Correctly.


Sent with Tapatalk. Please, forgive autocorrect and my fat fingers.

 

[Rudeofus]

That could be it. However, the Tetenal times (in the instructions that come with the E6 kit) say their times are for "Rotary Discard" - whatever that is. I assumed that probably meant one shot rotary processing but I wasn't sure.

I don't see anything in the Tetenal instructions that says anything about figuring out the correct times for rotary processing but maybe I missed it. I'll read it again.

Tetenal's instructions are a mess, and I sure hope they will find someone literate in their crew to improve them - especially now that they contract manufacture for Kodak. Here's what I found:

• On page 6 the manual indeed states "COLORTEC E-6 3-BATH is for the development of E-6 compatible colour slide films in rotary discard processors."
• On page 8 above the time table the manual again states "PROCESSING Rotary discard: Standard development at 38 °C/100 °F"
• On page 8 below the time tables it says: "First developer times must be adapted individually to suit the combination of developer machine, film make, speed of rotation and the proportion of film area to the quantity of first developer.". This points both at rotary processing and confirms my memory of "figure out times for each rotary processor"
• The time table expects 1-2 rolls of film for 500ml working solution. This would certainly point at inversion tank processing.
• On page 9 it suddenly states "Agitation Step 1 (FD), 3 (CD), 5 (BX): constantly during first 15 secs, then once every 15 secs". You can't have intermittent agitation with rotary processing! Sounds like this time table is for inversion processing after all ...
• Finally, on page 9 another FD time and temperature is given for rotary processing: "For rotary processing equipment: pre heat to 39 °C/102 °F and first developer time = 7 mins.

The times given in the time table gave me great results with inversion processing, and rowghani reports success with rotary processing and Jobo instructions. Since Tetenal's instructions create more confusion than clarity, I'd say stick to rowghani's recommendation and use Jobo instructions.

Also note, that CD, BLIX and all wash steps all run to completion and can't really be overdone. Whatever Tetenal's or Jobo's instructions say, take the longest time given.

 

[ZoneIII]

Thanks, Rudeofus! I'm seeing everything you mentioned my manual. I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one to find Tetenal's instructions confusing. When I first read it, I was totally confused and had to read it again. Even then, I smacked myself on my forehead while trying to figure it out. There's the confusing and (seemingly) illogical info about the number of films in the first chart. I still haven't figured that out but no big deal.

This is the one I really love - on page 9: "Certain plastics absorb traces of the colour developer strongly and permanently. Consequently, rotary equipment with trays and other parts made of plastics are not suitable for this process."

Anyone reading that who didn't know any better would think that that meant that you couldn't use the chemistry in a Jobo processor even though Jobos are made to do precisely that.

Thanks for the info about the CD developer step running to completion. I knew about the BLIX and wash steps (although I haven't used BLIX for years and that was with print chemistry), I had forgotten that it was true for the CD step. Good info! In fact, that gives me the answer that I need.

Thanks again!

 

[ZoneIII]

Here is the response I received from Tetenal. It appears that their E6 kit has been changed since the Jobo manuals were published - at least the ones for their old-line processors.

"Thank you for your question regarding the conflicting information you´ve found about our Tetenal Colortec 3-step E6 kit.

The short version:
Please use the times mentioned in the manual that comes with our kit.

The longer version:
The time ranging from 6 to 8 minutes depends on the how much films you want to process in one step. Rotary discard means that you can reuse the chemical.

If you use 500 ml and want to process 2 films you have to use 6 min. for the color developer. You can now reuse the same chemical for the next 2 films (3 and 4). Because the color developer is used you have to increase the color developer time to 7 min. For the next 2 films (5 and 6) you have to increase the time to 8 minutes.

If you want to process 6 films in 500 ml of color developer in one step you have to use 7 min. to get the same result.

Years ago we produced another Tetenal 3-step E6 kit for the US market. For that product the 4 min. color developer time was sufficient. But today we produce the same kit for all markets and therefore the time mentioned in the actual manual is the right time.

The critical component is the first developer time. Which is just a black and white developer. The color developer develops only what the first developer has left over to develop. So if the necessary time is 4 minutes to develop the rest of the film with the color developer there is no negative effect if you develop it with 5 or 6 minutes. But to be on the safe side for the color developer the time mentioned in the manual is the right time.

We recommend to test the times with a test film.

I hope this explains your question.

Please feel free to contact us if you have further questions regarding our products."

 

[adelorenzo]

Thanks for posting that response. I have one of those kits sitting on my shelf right now, this information is very helpful.

 

[stefan4u]

The reason for a possible shorter CD time during drum processing is quite an heavy impact of oxygene to the color developer, as far as I know..

This may give you a green shift due (slight) pH variation and reduced amount of Citacinic acid.That can lead to a slight contrast boost too.
As usual this depends a bit on the used films ,what kind of developer is used, the processing routines and how well the whole stuff is mixed up in your drum. The „hobby pacs“ are more designed to drum processing (in order to overcome those effects), than some older original formulations.
Some companys (Agfa) sold special color developers for drum processing in the days back…

Somewhere in all the Kodak files you can find similar instructions; to decrease CD time if you have problems with a green cast during drum processing…that ist he same effect.

In doubt, just do some clip developing with 5/6/7 minutes and look out for visible differences.

Regards stefan

 

[Joel_L]

Ah Yes, I miss read your question. I have always developed using the 4 minute time for the CD with good results. I also seem to remember mixing the reversal bath more diluted, but that no longer applies. I have always mixed for one shot so never worried about time adjustments.

Joel

Yes, I have that information. What I'm concerned about is only the color developer time. It looks like I should just go with the Jobo time (4.00) but I'm going to check back to this thread to see if I get any more responses before I start developing the film just in case. I have a lot of film to develop - mostly 4x5".

 

[ZoneIII]

Read my second part here if you want to hear about my processing disaster that just happened.

The reversal bath dilution (60%) was used with the older Kodak 6-step kits. However, near the end before they discontinued the product, Kodak changed the reversal bath concentrate so you no longer had to dilute the reversal bath. They had a prominent note on the packaging to let people know that the dilution should not be done with the later version of the kit. I just wish that kit was still available. However, as I mentioned in another thread, Freestyle was going to get some Fuji Hunt 6-step kits and, if there was enough demand, they would carry it. The downside is that the 5L kit would be about $200. But that might actually be worth it to me. If anyone is interested in buying the Fuji-Hunt kit, let Freestyle know. Also, I was reading where T-grain E6 films such as the Velvia that I shoot really shouldn't be processed with 3-step chemistry. Freestyle doesn't have the Fuji Hunt kits listed on their website yet but, again, if you are interested in it, please let Freestyle know.


I just came up from my darkroom while my system heats up. (I use a commercial grade high temperature recirculating pump for precise control. You can see it in a YouTube video I have. Look for videos by "ZoneIII." The heater on my Jobo is just a backup set slightly below the processing temperature and it also helps heat the water bath up faster although I fill it with water up to temperature most times.)

Anyway, I just had a disaster. I was processing my first batch of 4x5" sheet film (10 sheets) in my 3010 tank when, halfway through the process, the water and chemistry would no longer drain out the Jobo drain hose. I took it apart and the drain hose in the Lift had become detached from it's fitting. It was attached with a lousy plastic twist tie type thing. I reinstalled it with a SS hose clamp and the system is heating up again. I probably lost all my film in that batch because I'm not sure when the hose broke free. I'm hoping that the CD wasn't diluted with rinse water that hadn't drained. If I'm very lucky, the CD step went OK. I filled the drum with water while I took the Lift apart and fixed it. I'll see what happens in a bit.

The water and chemicals were draining into the Lift and then out the seams where the Lift attaches to the base. It's not nice to have things like that happen in the middle of processing. :-(


Follow Up: It wasn't a disaster after all. The film came out fine. I won't be able to judge them critically until they're dry but, from experience, they should look fine when dry.

By the way, I just thought of something that someone using or planning to use the Tetenal kit may not have thought of. In the manual, they only show how times are extended only for 500ml and 1000ml. But sometimes you simply can't use that much chemistry because it won't fit in some drums. So, say you are using a smaller amount of chemistry in, say a small single roll 35mm tank. If you do that, I'm sure you can't extend the times for subsequent rolls with re-use and you probably can't re-use small quantities anyway because the working chemistry will be depleted more than it would with a greater volume. Tetenal doesn't even mention that. So I would be very careful about re-using the chemistry when you have amounts less than 500ml. In fact, I'll just use it one-shot in that case.

They really do have to re-write their manual but something tells me they won't.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

There is a Fujihunt 6 bath 5L kit.

Tom