Question about Digitaltruth Rodinal Recipe

cengman · Apr 23, 2015

Hi! New here. I've been an enthusiastic amateur photographer for a while now. I do most of my photography with digital mirrorless camera, but I've been playing around more and more with a couple old film cameras left to me by family members. I've decided that to make this new addition to my hobby affordable I'll have to do all my own film processing. Tried one roll of c41 film with the kit from unicolor and it worked out pretty well. I'm shooting some black and white film now and decided to mix up my own batch of Rodinal with which to develop it. I used the recipe on the Digitaltruth Photo website. I cut all quantities in half to make 500ml of stock.

I'm not positive that what I ended up with is correct. In many of the historic recipes on the same website, there are instructions to add the "caustic" solution to the aminophenol and sulfite solution gradually with stirring and to observe first the appearance of a precipitate and then to continue adding base until the solution clears again.

The material that I have ended up with is definitely NOT clear. I have a straw-colored solution with an off-white, fine crystalline precipitate that is slowly settling to the bottom. For anyone who has used this recipe before, is this what I should expect? Or should I continue to add some NaOH until the solution clears? Thanks!

pdeeh · Apr 23, 2015

sounds ok, mine looked like that when i made it.

I'd be the last one to put you off experimenting - but if you're making developer out of bits and bobs from the hardware shop (store) and chemist (pharmacy), if your negatives then don't work out the way you expected or wanted, then you might struggle to track down the problem (or even get help)

So it can be a lot easier (and results can be more predictable) just to buy a commercially manufactured developer, at least to begin with. But then I started out with caffenol and my first year of developing was with a homemade developer so who am I to give advice

Ian Grant · Apr 23, 2015

There's nowhere near enough Potassium Metabisulphite which is almost a saturated solution in proper Rodinal. It breaks down with the Potassium Hydroxide to form Potassium Sulphite.

Also Rodinal is made from the p-Aminophenol free base not the Hydrochloride. Mme Andresen published a similar formula in an Agfa Handbook in the very early 1900's while not Rodinal it's similar and that's the one in the Darkroom Cookbook.

Use the version in the Darkroom Cookbook it's far superior. Welcome to APUG BTW.

Ian

cengman · Apr 23, 2015

pdeeh said:
sounds ok, mine looked like that when i made it.

I'd be the last one to put you off experimenting - but if you're making developer out of bits and bobs from the hardware shop (store) and chemist (pharmacy), if your negatives then don't work out the way you expected or wanted, then you might struggle to track down the problem (or even get help)

So it can be a lot easier (and results can be more predictable) just to buy a commercially manufactured developer, at least to begin with. But then I started out with caffenol and my first year of developing was with a homemade developer so who am I to give advice

Thanks for the input. I got my chemicals from photographers formulary. When I was searching for some off-the-shelf rodinal it seemed like it was on backorder everywhere. I really wanted to start out with Rodinal for a number of reasons. I'm no stranger to doing a little wet chemistry and I'm not very patient so I decided to go ahead and get the chemicals and give it a shot. For now I'll be very happy to have any kind of image on my negs. I'll work on perfecting the craft as I go.

fotch · Apr 23, 2015

Hello and welcome to APUG.

Gerald C Koch · Apr 23, 2015

To add to what Ian said the formula given is much weaker than true Rodinal and also errs in that Rodinal used potassium hydroxide not sodium hydroxide. Using sodium hydroxide will result in a somewhat less active developer.

cengman · Apr 23, 2015

Ian Grant said:
There's nowhere near enough Potassium Metabisulphite which is almost a saturated solution in proper Rodinal. It breaks down with the Potassium Hydroxide to form Potassium Sulphite.

Also Rodinal is made from the p-Aminophenol free base not the Hydrochloride. Mme Andresen published a similar formula in an Agfa Handbook in the very early 1900's while not Rodinal it's similar and that's the one in the Darkroom Cookbook.

Use the version in the Darkroom Cookbook it's far superior. Welcome to APUG BTW.

Ian

Thanks. I think they actually mention this other recipe on the digitaltruth page for rodinal, and I guess not surprisingly, they say it's "in dispute" and "not recommended." I'm certainly not in any position to argue about it, though. I can only try it out and see what happens.

What would be the result in the negative of developing with low sulfite developer compared to a rodinal formula with more sulfite? I'm planning to use this, at least at first, at 1:100 for stand development.

Gerald C Koch · Apr 23, 2015

cengman said:
Thanks. I think they actually mention this other recipe on the digitaltruth page for rodinal, and I guess not surprisingly, they say it's "in dispute" and "not recommended." I'm certainly not in any position to argue about it, though. I can only try it out and see what happens.

What would be the result in the negative of developing with low sulfite developer compared to a rodinal formula with more sulfite? I'm planning to use this, at least at first, at 1:100 for stand development.

I would not recommend the Digital Truth formula for stand development. It is too dilute and low in sulfite.

A rordinal-type developer is not easy to make and requires some chemical experience. If you are new to analog photography then stay with commercial products for a white. If you want Rodinal then buy one of the rordinal clones which would have been cheaper than the PF kit.

As far as DT's comment on the Troop book it really is "the pot calling the kettle black." Stand development has a very narrow purpose (that of contrast reduction or tonal compression) and should not be an excuse to stint of developer.

cengman · Apr 23, 2015

Also, just to anyone, it seems like there are many, many "formulas" for "rodinal." How is anyone verifying any kind of provenance? I mean, on the website I looked at, they reference several historical formulas that are all somewhat similar and that they claim are all variants of the actual production formula used by Agfa at various times. I'm not saying I believe the information on digitaltruth. Just curious for anyone who knows the history, how do you know which formula is the "Real" rodinal anyway? It seems like digitaltruth is pretty sure they've got the real rodinal.

Ian Grant · Apr 23, 2015

Digitaltruth used to have the correct substitute formula (as in the Darkroom Cookbook) until a person banned from this site started posting wild unfounded claims even saying Rodinal at one point contained Carbonate. Agfa always made a point that Rodinal was free of Carbonate. Unfortunately the site changed the page at his instigation and it's not been corrected.

Ian

cengman · Apr 23, 2015

Gerald C Koch said:
I would not recommend the Digital Truth formula for stand development. It is too dilute and low in sulfite.

A rordinal-type developer is not easy to make and requires some chemical experience. If you are new to analog photography then stay with commercial products for a white. If you want Rodinal then buy one of the rordinal clones which would have been cheaper than the PF kit.

As far as DT's comment on the Troop book it really is "the pot calling the kettle black." I might also add that stand development has a very narrow purpose (that of contrast compression) and should not be an excuse to stint of developer.

As far as DT's comment on the Troop book it really is the "pot calling the kettle black." O might also add that stand development development has a very narrow purpose and should not be an excuse to stint on developer.

When I was shopping, there was not a single place that I was able to find that Rodinal in stock. And those places that had it in their catalog did not sell it for less than what I spent on chemicals, and I still have enough leftover potassium metabisulfite to make the same recipe two more times. (I already had NaOH on hand.)

I'm not a chemist, but I work in a bio lab and I have a couple engineering degrees. There's nothing in this particular formula that strikes me as being very difficult.

cengman · Apr 23, 2015

Ian Grant said:
Digitaltruth used to have the correct substitute formula (as in the Darkroom Cookbook) until a person banned from this site started posting wild unfounded claims even saying Rodinal at one point contained Carbonate. Agfa always made a point that Rodinal was free of Carbonate. Unfortunately the site changed the page at his instigation and it's not been corrected.

Ian

Oh my! I had no idea there was so much drama involved.

Gerald C Koch · Apr 23, 2015

cengman said:
Also, just to anyone, it seems like there are many, many "formulas" for "rodinal." How is anyone verifying any kind of provenance? I mean, on the website I looked at, they reference several historical formulas that are all somewhat similar and that they claim are all variants of the actual production formula used by Agfa at various times. I'm not saying I believe the information on digitaltruth. Just curious for anyone who knows the history, how do you know which formula is the "Real" rodinal anyway? It seems like digitaltruth is pretty sure they've got the real rodinal.

Agfa never revealed the formula. Then too the formula was changed several times over time. The only one that can be verified is the "Wolfen" recipe from 1945. This recipe is not practical for the amateur user as it makes over 340 liters and calls for a proprietary chemical of unknown composition. We do know that the original recipe called for 3 ingredients; p-aminophenol, bisulfite potash solution and potash lye solution.

Ricardo Miranda · Apr 23, 2015

cengman said:
When I was shopping, there was not a single place that I was able to find that Rodinal in stock. And those places that had it in their catalog did not sell it for less than what I spent on chemicals, and I still have enough leftover potassium metabisulfite to make the same recipe two more times. (I already had NaOH on hand.)

I'm not a chemist, but I work in a bio lab and I have a couple engineering degrees. There's nothing in this particular formula that strikes me as being very difficult.

Did you try to find it under other names such as Foma Fomadon R09 or Adox Adonal?

pdeeh · Apr 23, 2015

cengman said:
Oh my! I had no idea there was so much drama involved.

... you haven't earned your spurs until you've fought in the front line in the Rodinal Wars.

There's never been a treaty to end them, and skirmishes still break out from time to time ....

cengman · Apr 23, 2015

Ricardo Miranda said:
Did you try to find it under other names such as Foma Fomadon R09 or Adox Adonal?

Yup.

ritternathan · Apr 23, 2015

It's in stock at Freestyle right now

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/12054-Adox-Rodinal-Film-Developer-500ml

Gerald C Koch · Apr 23, 2015

cengman said:
I'm not a chemist, but I work in a bio lab and I have a couple engineering degrees. There's nothing in this particular formula that strikes me as being very difficult.

Of course it doesn't because it's not correct. The Troop formula is a bit more demanding. If the punished developer contains an excess of hydroxide it will not keep.

cengman · Apr 23, 2015

ritternathan said:
It's in stock at Freestyle right now

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/12054-Adox-Rodinal-Film-Developer-500ml

It wasn't when I was shopping. I saw it listed in their catalog, but it was on backorder. Decided to go with DIY.

cengman · Apr 23, 2015

Gerald C Koch said:
Of course it doesn't because it's not correct. The Troop formula is a bit more demanding.

What makes it more demanding? I don't have the formula or the procedure to refer to.

ritternathan · Apr 23, 2015

cengman said:
It wasn't when I was shopping. I saw it listed in their catalog, but it was on backorder. Decided to go with DIY.

Check out the articles section there are two long posts on modern Rodinal recipes if I remember correctly.

Gerald C Koch · Apr 23, 2015

cengman said:
What makes it more demanding? I don't have the formula or the procedure to refer to.

You cannot just dump in x number of grams of hydroxide. Usually a 50% solution of hydroxide is added slowly with constant stirring until almost all the p-aminophenol base dissolves. This insures that there is no excess of hydroxide. Gauging when this happens is a bit tricky.

The various brands of rodinal are so cheap that most people just buy it. In addition until recently it was hard to get potassium hydroxide.

cengman · Apr 23, 2015

Gerald C Koch said:
You cannot just dump in x number of grams of hydroxide. Usually a 50% solution of hydroxide is added slowly with constant stirring until almost all the p-aminophenol base dissolves. This insures that there is no excess of hydroxide. Gauging when this happens is a bit tricky.

Okay. Still not difficult, heck I've got a buret and a stopcock. But yes a very different procedure.

I've found plenty more to read by and about the gentleman in question, the proprietor of the mythic history of rodinal. I see that this has been going on for quite a while. If I had realized beforehand that the recipe I was following was almost certainly bogus I wouldn't have made it. Oh well...

pdeeh · Apr 23, 2015

cengman said:
. If I had realized beforehand that the recipe I was following was almost certainly bogus I wouldn't have made it.

But I'll bet it will still develop film.

I've made several batches of "paRodinal" with shop bought paracetamol, using a number of variations of proportions of other ingredients (using member Dorff's excellent spreadsheet calculator), adn they've all worked quite well enough for me.

Whether they would satisfy the most hardcore Zoneists, or produce consistent curves for the densitometerists, is quite another matter, of course.

Why not try it and see?

Gerald C Koch · Apr 23, 2015

The recipe in Digital Truth isn't bogus just not Rodinal. So dilutions and times may be different. So follow their recommendations.

Question about Digitaltruth Rodinal Recipe

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