Question about Crown Graphic 4x5

[eSPhotos]

Yep with lens (Xenar preferred) but without film holders.
KEH has a few bargain grade ranging $200-$300 without the lens.

 

[John Koehrer]

What would be the going price of a reasonably clean Crown ?
Checked the bay and they go for around $400.

Izzat completed sales or optimistic sellers asking prices?

 

[eSPhotos]

A couple of good looking cams from completed sales went 400sh. There are cheaper (read rough) ones went for a lot less.
Of course there are optimistic sellers too but I think I can pin point them ...

 

[Paul Howell]

A press camera is not a view camera, it is what it is. Some other press type cameras such as the Busch have revolving backs and more front movement, and then there are Linlof's and Horseman's and Superspeeds and Crowns. I have both a Speed and Crown 4X5s and a view camera. I like my Crown as I can use high speed film and hand hold it or use a monopod while hiking or for street work. My Speed is held togeather by duck tape and payer, I will take it anywhere. A speed or crown does not replace a view camera. I also find that my Crown with a couple of lens and 4 or 5 flim holders is lighter than my Kowa Super 66 with 3 lens.

 

[2F/2F]

"A press camera is not a view camera, it is what it is"

If you are looking at a focusing glass that is being illuminated directly by the lens, then it is a view camera. Most press cameras (even my Mamiyas) have this option, therefore I disagree with your classification of them as non view cameras.

 

[degruyl]

I recommend KEH if you are going to be spending any sort of real money. The problems that are left off of e-bay listings are too numerous to mention, and KEH will take the camera back without a hassle.

As for the difference between a field and a view camera: if you can find a relatively inexpensive field camera, I'd go for that. I use both press and field cameras, but I don't expect movements on the press cameras (I use them handheld and with a working rangefinder)

 

[BetterSense]

I have found that with the shallow DOF of 4x5, press cameras are just too limiting for general photography. My RB67 has replaced my Speed Graphic. Neither camera has movements but at least the RB is somewhat faster. I even wish I had the ability to make movements on my RB.

 

[Ian Grant]

I'd forget buying from KEH or any other shop for something like this unless it's a real bargain $200 or less, best value is Subscribe here to APUG and place a wanted advert, you'll get a good one at a very reasonable price.

degruyl makes a point about bad Ebay listings but even the two Speed Graphic write offs I bought as parts to build one were both very easy & cheap to fully restore, one was a pre-Anniversary the other a Pacemaker, no parts were common

Ian

 

[Paul Howell]

"A press camera is not a view camera, it is what it is"

If you are looking at a focusing glass that is being illuminated directly by the lens, then it is a view camera. Most press cameras (even my Mamiyas) have this option, therefore I disagree with your classification of them as non view cameras.

You do have a point, but I do not consider the ground glass as the primary focusing means, the rangfiner or sports finder was the main method. With a view camera the only option is the ground glass. I know of od time press photos who took off the ground glass to avoid broken glass during a shoot. When I think of view camera I think of all the movements and features like double bellows which are not found on most press cameras. Some people call the press camera the poor man's view camera, which is why I think of the press camera as it own beast.

 

[2F/2F]

You do have a point, but I do not consider the ground glass as the primary focusing means, the rangfiner or sports finder was the main method. With a view camera the only option is the ground glass. I know of od time press photos who took off the ground glass to avoid broken glass during a shoot. When I think of view camera I think of all the movements and features like double bellows which are not found on most press cameras. Some people call the press camera the poor man's view camera, which is why I think of the press camera as it own beast.

Hi,

My point is just that the label "view camera" is more general than you consider it. The "view camera" label comes from how the shots are composed, not from it's construction, per se (i.e.whether it is a press, technical, rail, fixed-focus "box camera," and so on); it has nothing to do with movements, whether or not the camera allows the use of a rangefinder, or how "most people" use the cameras. It has to do with how you compose the pictures.

If you are using the camera such that the lens is directly illuminating the focusing screen, then you are using it as a view camera, regardless of the camera's other capabilities. The "view" relates to the fact that you are viewing the image through the lens directly; you are not viewing it bounced off a mirror, or framing with a viewfinder/sportsfinder.

The division you are talking about (one of focusing type) exists between view cameras (TTL direct viewing), reflex cameras (TTL viewing off of a mirror), and viewfinder cameras (viewing through a window, not TTL at all), not between view cameras and press cameras. What you are saying is that the fact that Graphics can be used as viewfinder/sportsfinder cameras disqualifies them from being view cameras. They can be either. That is a large part of why they are so great.

The Graphics and other press cameras can be view cameras, coupled rangefinder cameras, or scale-focus cameras in regards to focusing; and they can be view cameras or viewfinder/sportsfinder cameras in regards to composition.

Sorry to go on. I am not trying to beat you up. I just don't want people thinking that the only way to use a Graphic is as a viewfinder/sportsfinder camera. They can be used as view cameras as well; saying that they are not view cameras is just not correct.

To be clear for the OP:

- You can focus most press cameras by scale, by coupled rangefinder, or by ground glass (or any combination of the three).

- You can compose most press cameras by viewfinder, by sportsfinder, or by ground glass (or any combination of the three).

- Categorizing cameras by type of composition, you have view cameras, reflex cameras, and viewfinder/sportsfinder cameras. And you have cameras that can use multiple methods.

- Categorizing cameras by type of focusing, you have ground glass, reflex, scale, or coupled rangefinder cameras. And cameras that can use multiple methods.

- Within the field of view cameras, you can find rail/bed ("studio") cameras, field cameras, press cameras, and technical cameras.

- Therefore, a press camera and a view camera are not exclusive of each other as a matter of course.

 

[eSPhotos]

I bought the Crown and it's on its way.
Also bought a half dozen film holders and 50 sheets of 'cheap' 4x5 B&W films for practice.
Once I get use to the camera I will take off for 2 week shooting trip. Which leads to another question; how do you guys store exposed films?
I will have a dozen or so double sided holders but I don't think that's enough for 2 weeks.
I can carry dark bag but not possible to carry developing chemicals...
Is there film containers ??

 

[BetterSense]

There are film containers called 'boxes'. Film usually comes in them. You can also use these:

http://freestylephoto.biz/4135-Black-Bag-for-Mailer-4x5?cat_id=1603

In a pinch I have even used aluminum foil.

 

[Ian Grant]

I've found it easy changing DDS (film holders) in hotel rooms etc, many have bath rooms with no windows, occasionally I use a cupboard.

When stuck I've asked and used beer cellars in pubs

Ian

 

[eSPhotos]

Okay, sounds like a PITA to keep shooting record of each film ..

 

[Paul Howell]

Hi,

If you are using the camera such that the lens is directly illuminating the focusing screen, then you are using it as a view camera, regardless of the camera's other capabilities. The "view" relates to the fact that you are viewing the image through the lens directly; you are not viewing it bounced off a mirror, or framing with a viewfinder/sportsfinder.

The division you are talking about (one of focusing type) exists between view cameras (TTL direct viewing), reflex cameras (TTL viewing off of a mirror), and viewfinder cameras (viewing through a window, not TTL at all), not between view cameras and press cameras. What you are saying is that the fact that Graphics can be used as viewfinder/sportsfinder cameras disqualifies them from being view cameras. They can be either. That is a large part of why they are so great.

The Graphics and other press cameras can be view cameras, coupled rangefinder cameras, or scale-focus cameras in regards to focusing; and they can be view cameras or viewfinder/sportsfinder cameras in regards to composition.

I dont use the ground glass, I use the rangefinder and viewfinder or sports finder, I took the ground glass off my speed 20 years ago. So I do not fit your defination.

Most press cameras are very poor in the view camera role compared to a monorail or even flat bed view camears. My thinking is that a press camera is not an good replacement to a monorail or flatbed view camera, but is an option for shooting LF handheld or with a monopod on the fly. Current prices for a Graphic View and other entry level monrails cost less than a quaility press camera.

 

[2F/2F]

I dont use the ground glass, I use the rangefinder and viewfinder or sports finder, I took the ground glass off my speed 20 years ago. So I do not fit your defination.

Most press cameras are very poor in the view camera role compared to a monorail or even flat bed view camears. My thinking is that a press camera is not an good replacement to a monorail or flatbed view camera, but is an option for shooting LF handheld or with a monopod on the fly. Current prices for a Graphic View and other entry level monrails cost less than a quaility press camera.

That is all well and good; but I didn't argue about any of that. I am taking issue with applying your own practices and opinions as general statements of fact. When you do that, the "facts" you state just ain't really the facts. I don't think you should tell the OP that all press cameras are not view cameras. Why not simply say that they are less capable in terms of your ability to manipulate the image in camera? Saying that they aren't view cameras solely because they are press cameras is just incorrect; it gives bad information to the OP. Do you honestly think that because 1) you took your ground glass off 20 years ago and 2) press cameras don't have as many movements as some other cameras, that you should be making the general statement that all press cameras are not view cameras to a beginner with basic questions on press cameras? The statement just isn't true, and your argument that it is what you do doesn't make the statement any more true.

What you said that I disagree with is:

A press camera is not a view camera, it is what it is.

...and:

A speed or crown does not replace a view camera.

In regards to the first statement, "press cameras" and "view cameras" are not exclusive of each other by simple definition. Most press cameras can be used as view cameras.

In regards to the second, of course the idea is correct. Press cameras are limited. However, the division of camera type is in the wrong place. It is not "press camera vs. view camera." It is "press cameras versus full-featured rail/bed camera." Both are view cameras.

 

[Mike Wilde]

Okay, sounds like a PITA to keep shooting record of each film ..

I file a notch code into the edge of the flip up part of each side of the the double cut holders. Ralph Lambrecht's great idea from his superb book, way beyond monochrome. The notch code lines up to the number written on the outside of the holder. I used different shaped files. a one was a v, five a u and 10 a square notch.

Then I use a voice recorder, and do a little play by play as I finish up the metering and setting the shutter and aperture.

There are prompts on the side of the recorder that remind me to say things in the order of my note pad that I usually transfer notes to before I unload the holders.

Stuff like Film X, shot at EI y, filter z, if any, lens, shutter speed, aperture, bellows factor considered, if any, EV readings for Z3, 5,and 8 and then if it is N+, N- or whatever. I also record the name of the place, and whatever elese I want to note.

When I unpack I play back, and make notes of which negs are N-1 development candidates, and unload them into one box (labelled n-1), and go on to n's box, then n+ box.

Wierd ones like N-2 I write on a post it, and stick it on the film (back side, and leave them in the back of the box for + or -), and leave a psot it on the front of the box of how many wierdo's to feel for when it comes time to load hangers at home.

Once processed the notches of exposed bits at the top of the film can be decoded to tell you the holder it sat in. I contact print my 4x5's and store the print in front of the neg with the exposure and development info written on the back of that contact print.

Sorry you are so far away; I have a fair collection of empty boxes, and have mailed them to those starting 4x5 within NA in the past.

 

[eSPhotos]

Thanks Mike, lots of good tips.
I am going to make a template for recording shooting specs.
I used 4x5 films for my pinhole cam so I should have some old film boxes and black plastic bags in the store.
Thanks anyway.

 

[scheimfluger_77]

Great discussion and good reading. I have a Crown with a peculiar problem and wonder if anyone has any ideas. My focus rail will not extend fully. The problem appears to be misalignment of the rail guides between those mounted on the body and those on the drop bed. When the moving portion of the rail in the body contacts the guide on the drop bed... that's it. Needless to say that makes the extra 3-4 inches of extension unavailable to me. Any thoughts? Thanks.

Steve

 

[Ian Grant]

The rails get damaged by previous owners forcing the camera's open/closed with the rail not in the fully retracted position.

There's actually some paper shims under the rear rail guides, it's these guides that get damaged, I had to replace them on a Speed Graphic I rebuilt and shim them carefully to allow the rail to move smoothly.

Chances are your rails may be bent slightly not holding the rear rails down properly. You'll need to look closely. Each rail is held in place with a nut/bolt. the top part is a screw head under the bellows.

The rail guides in the photo were a complete write off. They can be found but it's not easy Canyonland Graphics I think is where I got new ones.

Ian

 

[scheimfluger_77]

...Chances are your rails may be bent slightly not holding the rear rails down properly....
Ian

Thanks Ian. Is it advisable to remove the bellows when working on the camera? If so how are the attached in the rear?

Steve

 

[Fotoguy20d]

Steve,

If you are trying to work on the rear rails you may be able to get away with just removing the front standard - it's held on by the four screws which hold the lens board rails (you can probably get away with just removing the top ones and loosening the lower ones most of the way) - don't lose all the little washers that go with those screws. Otherwise, to remove the bellows from the back, remove the entire graflok (or graphic) back (5 screws) - you will see two metal tabs on each of the edges of the bellows - those are what holds the bellows to the body. You will need to pry those away very carefully. You'll need to experiment to see what works best for you. I've found that bending one to get started and then working my way around starting with a long edge I can usually get the bellows off with minimal further damage. The whole thing is a PITA.

Dan

 

[Ian Grant]

Steve, you may be able to just remove the bellows from the front standard and compress them back far enough, my camera was in such a poor state I'd removed them. It's best to do this anyway if you need to remove the bellows from the rear there's some screws hold them at the back and they also clip to the frame. Hard to describe as my Crown Graphic's in Turkey and the Speed Graphics I have here differ because of the shutter but it shouldn't be difficult.

The nut parts for the screw/bolts are under the two runner/feet bits underneath the camera.

Ian

 

[Fotoguy20d]

Ian,

I've never seen screws holding the bellows from the back, just the eight clips. To get at the clips, the back needs to be removed, which is 5 screws. Some of the later models (very late) have removable clips instead of the ones built into the bellows frame, but I've only seen one of those.

I've removed the rear rails without removing the bellows but it's a difficult angle to the rear rail screws and a small screw driver must be used. Because of the lack of leverage, if the screws are in there tight, it might not be possible. Be careful about stripping the heads.

On the cameras I've seen, the nuts are recessed into the runners/feet so can't be removed first.

Dan

 

[eSPhotos]

Now I am a large format shooter!

Received the Crown Graphic. Played a couple of hours trying to work out what's what. Quite simple to operate.
Checked the movements and I think it is good enough for what I shoot - open landscape.
It has a max shift of about 30mm and bed drop of about 20mm offset at 150mm FL.
Although it came with a clean Xenar 135mm I am already looking for a lens with larger image circle.
Based on its movements I think I need a lens that has about 200mm image circle.
Lens board has 34mm hole.
I don't have big budget but want some decent lens.
Any recommendation?