Queries on 'STARTERS' for C41 Process

[pentaxpete]

1. What exactly does the C41 Developer Starter do ? I use 'FUJI ENVIRONEG Replenisher Air + Starter cn16L N1-S ' at 30mls/Litre Replenisher given 2x10 Litre Concentrates Parts A.B and C from a mini-lab forced to close.
When I develop I find 3 mins 15 secs @ 100oF is too short -- get under-developed negs.
QUESTION : Can I add LESS STARTER to make the Developer 'Stronger' ?
2. When I used FUJI HUNT C41 BLEACH I got a Violent Reaction on adding the 'Starter' which I did NOT get when I used Kodak Flexicolor III with Starter.
3 . I have : CPAC Trelux dev Starter left over fro when I used to order 'CPAC' chemistry .
Fuji Hunt NEGACOLOR Universal developer Starter 1 litre pack with instructions for differing'Negacolor'
Can I used these still for when my dwindling supply of the Fuji Environeg goes and can I use for 'MYDONEG' ?

 

[MattKing]

Starter is used in replenished systems to get your fresh developer into the same steady state as a well maintained, re-used and replenished developer. It adds restrainers to reduce the activity of fresh developer - i.e. to give the same result as developer with a normal amount of development byproducts in it.
If you are using your chemicals one shot, it may not make sense.

 

[pentaxpete]

as i thought -- so with my Fuji 'Environeg C41 ' maybe i can REDUCE the amount of the Starter to get the 'Usual Time' of 3 mins 15 secs I keep the left-over Replenisher and add it gradually as I put films through - not very 'exact' as a mini-lab machine would do but it works.

 

[MattKing]

Don't use the starter.
Start at 3 mins, and then slowly extend the time to 3 mins 15 seconds as you re-use the developer.

 

[Ian Grant]

AAgfa's version of D76 had Bromide in the Developer as a starter but none in the replenisherand essentially the C41 starters are similar they add Bromide.

Ian

 

[cmacd123]

the chemicals are formulated fro a replenished system. using the developer slowly adds bromide and also may cause the PH to change. The replenisher adds back the developing agent that is gradually used up by the process, it also makes up for the other ingredients that are carried away when the wet film is removed for the next step. the Starter is ONLY used when mixing up from scratch, and it contains SOME bromide to make the replenisher look more like the ideal developer.

it would not surprise me if different brands have widely different starter formulas. so you are totally on your own if you mix in brand a starter with Brand B replenish-er. read the manufacturers instructions, only some will recommend their replenish-er alone to replenish some other brands mixed developer. Many will tell you to drain the tank and start a fresh batch of their product.

 

[mshchem]

Matt hit the nail on the head. Starter is important to match a normal replenished system. Remembering that Developer Replenisher and Developer are not the same can trip people up. Starter is usually KBr and even NaCl in dilute solution. If you decide to replenish and don't use starter the first rolls will be denser.

 

[mshchem]

Color negative film is tolerant of a bit More activity in the developer. It's not by the book, but you will have a bit more density in your negatives.

E6 is where starters for both developers is critical. E6 shows no mercy. You go in with over active 1st developer it can be a disaster.

I use Kodak's Flexicolor starter with Flexicolor developer Replenisher to make Flexicolor Developer (tank solution). It's the right thing to do.

 

[MattKing]

Matt, this is NOT a good advice for C-41. This process is standardized and the development time is the same regardless of either replenishment is used or not. The developer must always be at the same activity level, therefore C-41 developer starter is required.

From Kodak Z-131-01:
KODAK FLEXICOLOR Chemicals for RotaryTube Processors, Small Tanks, and Unreplenished Sink Lines
These chemicals are designed for use in unreplenished batch systems—e.g., small tanks, rotary tubes, and small-volume sink lines. They are ready to use as mixed without adding starter.
KODAK FLEXICOLOR Developer Use this developer in unreplenished systems. No starter is needed
And with respect to the development time, Kodak themselves give advice about when a change to that time is advised. See for example, from Kodak Z-131-03 - the section on Process Control and Adjustment:
The best way to compensate for loss of developer temperature is by increasing the developer time (from the standard time of 3:15). The amount of developer-time extension can be determined approximately by the visual appearance of the density of processed film. The preferred method for determining the exact amount of developer-time extension required is to use KODAK Controls Strips. Process C-41 to monitor the process.

pentaxpete is using old developer/replenisher, of relatively uncertain activity, and has starter that doesn't match his developer.
In short, nothing is particularly standardized.
If he were to move to carefully monitored, replenished developer with matching starter, I too would advise actually using the starter.

 

[MattKing]

It isn't pentaxuser, it is pentaxpete .
And his chemicals are of much earlier vintage.
None of the CIS resources cover one-shot C41 development, so there won't be any instructions for one-shot use (with or without starter), but the role of starter will not change.
And replenisher alone will work fine in a one-shot process, provided you adjust time and temperature appropriately - preferably with the aid of control strips.
What you can't do without the starter is obtain immediately consistent results in a mechanized volume processor that makes use of replenishment.

 

[Mr Bill]

And replenisher alone will work fine in a one-shot process, provided you adjust time and temperature appropriately - preferably with the aid of control strips.

Matt, with all due respect you are mistaken on this. (Old Gregg has it right.) You missed a subtle point in this quote

KODAK FLEXICOLOR Developer Use this developer in unreplenished systems. No starter is needed

The reason that "no starter is needed" is because this is not a replenisher, it is an already setup "tank solution," suitable for developing film directly.

Most of the Kodak C-41 "developers" are sold in the form of "replenishers," and labeled as such. For a C-41 developer replenisher Kodak is always clear that to initially fill a processor by using replenisher it is necessary to use a "starter solution" (dilute the developer plus add starter according to the starter instructions). But the particular C-41 "developer" referenced is called only "developer," not "developer replenisher." That subtle difference in terminology is what reveals that it is suitable for developing as is - it is already equivalent to a replenisher treated with starter.

 

[pentaxpete]

WoW !! What a GREAT number of Helpful Replies ! In my description I DID tell you which Fuji C41 Dev it was -- it is FRESH 'Fuji Hunt ENVIRONEG Developer Replenisher LR with 'Air Control' from BOOTS Mini-Lab operator - he gave me his fresh un-opened box of 2x10 litres concentrates rather than DUMP it as all his mini-lab machine was being scrapped.
I did not get the 'Air Control' chemical so had to make it up without , using the Starter he gave me . The FIRST mixes gave good results and I did many films . Then only recently with 10/2006 dated freezer-stored KONICA VX400 Super did I find on fresh mix 3 mins 15 secs was too short - so that is why I asked of I could REDUCE the amount of Starter to make developer stronger. The Bleach is NEWLY Purchased and the CPAC FIX is still good -- no Sulphur.
PS -- I do get the temperature right in the Paterson Tank - I use a hot water bath for tank and pour in the Developer a couple of degrees over 100oF then keep checking Temp during agitation , which I give every 30 secs.

 

[koraks]

Then only recently with 10/2006 dated freezer-stored KONICA VX400 Super did I find on fresh mix 3 mins 15 secs was too short

There's your problem. You're using hopelessly old/degraded film. No matter what tricks you play with the chemistry, the results will always remain lackluster with this film. If you got good results with fresh film, your chemistry was good at least at that point in time. Yes, you can boost contrast of any film by developing longer or at higher temperature. You can even leave out the starter to get more density, but all these measures will also influence the color balance of the negatives. You may or may not be able to correct this in later printing or scanning. The color problems I've seen with your outdated Konica film won't be correctable however. That particular batch of film, excuse me for saying it this bluntly, is crap and IMO a complete waste of time.

The Bleach is NEWLY Purchased and the CPAC FIX is still good -- no Sulphur.

Bleach never has sulphur. It's not sulphur-based chemistry. It seems you're confusing bleach and fixer here.

 

[pentaxpete]

That is what I call 'Straight Talking '' -- I can take it ! Yes - I know the Bleach does not have 'Sulphur' only that Iron Compound which likes to be 'Oxygenated' . PS -- Today used another of that 10/2006 Konica VX400 rated 200ASA at a Classic car show -- film drying now.

 

[koraks]

Yes - I know the Bleach does not have 'Sulphur' only that Iron Compound which likes to be 'Oxygenated'

Ok, good; yeah, that's the one. Usually PDTA or EDTA.

Today used another of that 10/2006 Konica VX400 rated 200ASA at a Classic car show -- film drying now.

I'm hoping for the best...don't get me wrong; I have nothing against outdated film per se. My default 35mm film has been Superia 200 for a few years now, from the same batch that expired back in 2004. But I know it's been cold-stored since manufacture, it's all from the same batch and it gives consistent and usable results. Similar film from the same general period, but of more various providence...it's a crap shoot. In fact, I dumped all of it recently.

 

[pentaxuser]

koraks, pentaxpete's Konica may well be the problem but all I can say is that to date in the pics he has shown us his processing of out dated film has been remarkably successful to my eyes

I will be interested to see what his 10/2006 Konica VX 400 rated at 200 turns out to be.

His problem may not be as simple as using outdated film

pentaxuser NB not a non de plume or alter ego for pentaxpete

 

[MattKing]

Matt, with all due respect you are mistaken on this. (Old Gregg has it right.) You missed a subtle point in this quote


The reason that "no starter is needed" is because this is not a replenisher, it is an already setup "tank solution," suitable for developing film directly.

Most of the Kodak C-41 "developers" are sold in the form of "replenishers," and labeled as such. For a C-41 developer replenisher Kodak is always clear that to initially fill a processor by using replenisher it is necessary to use a "starter solution" (dilute the developer plus add starter according to the starter instructions). But the particular C-41 "developer" referenced is called only "developer," not "developer replenisher." That subtle difference in terminology is what reveals that it is suitable for developing as is - it is already equivalent to a replenisher treated with starter.

I think everyone is missing the fact that I am talking about pentaxpete using old, cast-off developer/replenisher and (potentially) un-matched starter.
If you have developer/replenisher and the correct starter - use that!

 

[koraks]

all I can say is that to date in the pics he has shown us his processing of out dated film has been remarkably successful to my eyes

We must be thinking of different examples. I had these in mind: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/can-i-use-e6-blix-for-c41.185607/page-2#post-2449643
I assume you don't qualify these as 'remarkably successful'. I wouldn't, in any case.

 

[pentaxpete]

Dear Friends -- further to the Conversation -- the Photos at the Classic Car show on the SAME BATCH of Fridge=Stored 10/2006 KONICA VX400 Super were POOR ! I scanned all but most not worth showing -- I did everything the Same as on a previous film with the Studio Still-Lifes on and THIS film was 'Thin' at 200 ASA but in the emulsion were loads of 'Black Flecks' which scanned white . I tried to get rid using ' Heal' and ' Clone' tools . How strange -- films that were un-opened together . SO TODAY on the last 3 films I did 'Clip Tests' rating 200. 100 and 50 ASA -- 3 exposures in Rolleiflex T with 16-on kit, cut the film and processed in same Paterson tank having Replenished the solutions, trying Pre-Soak but NO Stop Bath this time. RESULT under x6 Magnifier NO FLECKS, rebates clear no Fogg level colour good ! STRANGE !! I attach the few scans of the 'Thin, Flecked film.

 

[koraks]

I attach the few scans of the 'Thin, Flecked film.

Looks like severe backing paper/ink issues. I also saw it in the other examples I linked to above. These issues can vary from roll to roll depending on storage conditions and can even vary within a single roll (worse on the outside/start, better on the inside/end). It's not related to the processing chemistry.

Unless your stop has muck floating around in it, leaving it out doesn't explain this issue. Old film of questionable provenance can very well explain it. But I'll try not repeating the obvious anymore.

 

[mshchem]

This is on my bottle of Flexicolor starter, shows the dilution of the replenisher with starter and water. Even without starter one could dilute the replenisher FYI

 

[mshchem]

1. What exactly does the C41 Developer Starter do ? I use 'FUJI ENVIRONEG Replenisher Air + Starter cn16L N1-S ' at 30mls/Litre Replenisher given 2x10 Litre Concentrates Parts A.B and C from a mini-lab forced to close.
When I develop I find 3 mins 15 secs @ 100oF is too short -- get under-developed negs.
QUESTION : Can I add LESS STARTER to make the Developer 'Stronger' ?
2. When I used FUJI HUNT C41 BLEACH I got a Violent Reaction on adding the 'Starter' which I did NOT get when I used Kodak Flexicolor III with Starter.
3 . I have : CPAC Trelux dev Starter left over fro when I used to order 'CPAC' chemistry .
Fuji Hunt NEGACOLOR Universal developer Starter 1 litre pack with instructions for differing'Negacolor'
Can I used these still for when my dwindling supply of the Fuji Environeg goes and can I use for 'MYDONEG' ? View attachment 282202 View attachment 282203 View attachment 282204

I'm just seeing how close the Fuji Negacolor 2 dilution is to Kodak's starter

 

[Tom Taylor]

Matt, with all due respect you are mistaken on this. (Old Gregg has it right.) You missed a subtle point in this quote The reason that "no starter is needed" is because this is not a replenisher, it is an already setup "tank solution," suitable for developing film directly.

Most of the Kodak C-41 "developers" are sold in the form of "replenishers," and labeled as such. For a C-41 developer replenisher Kodak is always clear that to initially fill a processor by using replenisher it is necessary to use a "starter solution" (dilute the developer plus add starter according to the starter instructions). But the particular C-41 "developer" referenced is called only "developer," not "developer replenisher." That subtle difference in terminology is what reveals that it is suitable for developing as is - it is already equivalent to a replenisher treated with starter.

I believe that all Kodak AC-41 developers and labeled "Developer/Replenisher" and are made into a "Replenisher" by adding the Starter to Parts A, B, and C. Am I correct in this?
I ask because due to the supply-line problems I ordered the Fuji CN16 N1-MV Developer Replenisher which is the only C-41 Developer I found available right now. Thinking that it was "expired" I recently disposed of the probably 1/4 bottle of Kodak Starter I had and hope that the Fuji works without using a starter. The Kodak Flexicolor Developer/Replenisher comes in 3 parts (A, B, and C) and to add 25mL of starter for 1L working tank. For a 1L working tank I mixed 700mL water, 400mL Part A; 17.8 mL Part B; 40mL Part C; and 25 mL of Starter and topped off to 1L. But as Matt pointed out above the Kodak literature says that you don't need the starter if not replenishing. I process with a Jobo and so didn't need the starter but made room for it in the 1L working tank The Fuji comes already premixed, you just add 600 mL warm water to 400mL of concentrate to make the Replenisher and then 225mL of warm water to 750mL of replenisher and 25mL of Starter for a 1L working tank. The amount of starter in 1L working tank is the same. If the Fuji concentrate is comparable to the Kodak Parts A, B, and C, then would I add 225mL of warm water to 775 mL of replenisher?

Thomas

 

[cmacd123]

I always believed that you add "starter" to replenisher to make Developer. A lab may make one batch of developer and then happily use replenisher for months as long as the process remains in control. even shelf life of the working batch is not a big deal if the replensiher is used in such a volume that the contents of the tank are effectively replaced in a short time than the shelf life.

"starter" mostly provides the initial restrainer that is maintained by the bromide that comes out of the film.

 

[RPC]

Starter is indeed added, usually along with some water, to replenisher to make working solution developer, and provides restrainer (bromide) as mentioned above that is deliberately lacking to some degree in the replenisher.

This way, a lab need only buy replenisher and starter instead of buying both replenisher (for replenishment) and developer.(to put in the tank).