Pyrocat-HD vs 510-Pyro vs D-76d/Soda

[Relayer]

Ilford HP5+ @400
left side: Pyrocat-HD 1+1+100, 16min
right side: 510-Pyro 1+100, 6.5min

 

[Relayer]

Ilford HP5+ @400
left side: D-76d 5min + 3min in 2nd bath 10g/l Sodium carbonate
right side: 510-Pyro 1+100, 6.5min

 

[Relayer]

Ilford HP5+ @800 but developed as 400
left side: D-76d 5min + 3min in 2nd bath 10g/l Sodium carbonate
right side: Pyrocat-HD 1+1+100, 16min

 

[kozesluk]

those are scanned negatives?

 

[Relayer]

scanned at 2400dpi, sharp is off

 

[kozesluk]

make a big enlargement (10x at least) and scan it - THEN we can talk about "comparison".

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

make a big enlargement (10x at least) and scan it - THEN we can talk about "comparison".

Thank you for those words. A scanner doesn't see what a silver gelatin paper sees.

Especially split grade printing and stained negatives.

 

[Ian Grant]

I've been using HP5 and Pytocat HD while in Turkey, a bit of an oxymoron really as the lights consistently at max on my Gossen meters so why use a fast film Hand held LF work f22 @ 1/100 or 1/200th. I use slow films in the UK

HP5 and Pyrocat is a magical combination exceptional tonal range, so easy to print in the darkroom and the negatives scan perfectly as well.

Thank you for those words. A scanner doesn't see what a silver gelatin paper sees.

Especially split grade printing and stained negatives.

I'm not yet a hybrid photographer but had 2 negs scanned the day after shooting them in Turkey by another member of this forum, and then made Plat/Palladium prints, 2 months later when back in the UK I made silver gelatin prints.

What surprised me was with the right calibration there's no real differance

Ian

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

No real difference between silver gelatin and pt/pd? I am... surprised. You probably know something I don't know regarding that, so I will not open my piehole too wide.

But when I split grade pyro negatives on silver gelatin paper, I see things happening in the highlights that I don't see with for example Xtol or Rodinal. It seems as though the color of the stain in combination with the Grade 5 Ilford filter have a relationship that doesn't exist were it not for the image stain.

Also, to resolve grain you need something like 4,800dpi full optical resolution. There are very few scanners that can manage that, which makes the comparison above a bit redundant, because you don't see exactly what happens in the grain department. You see an approximation and grain aliasing.
Not that grain is that interesting anyway...

 

[Ian Grant]

No real difference between silver gelatin and pt/pd? I am... surprised. You probably know something I don't know regarding that, so I will not open my piehole too wide.

I'm a novice at the Pt/Pd stuff but the prints are comparable. I'm really saying that a hybrid route doesn't have to lose any details.

But when I split grade pyro negatives on silver gelatin paper, I see things happening in the highlights that I don't see with for example Xtol or Rodinal. It seems as though the color of the stain in combination with the Grade 5 Ilford filter have a relationship that doesn't exist were it not for the image stain.

I think that's due to the VC paper and the stain as I get that with a straight filtered print and it's not increased by my way of split grade printing.

Also, to resolve grain you need something like 4,800dpi full optical resolution. There are very few scanners that can manage that, which makes the comparison above a bit redundant, because you don't see exactly what happens in the grain department. You see an approximation and grain aliasing.
Not that grain is that interesting anyway...

I don't do the absolutes of this and that It's the prints that matter and how easy the work flow is to make new matching images/prints.

It maybe that I'm in the US next year and if so I'll probably have the Silver Gelatin & hybrid Plat/Palldium images with me. so maybe you can compare

I'm predominantly a darkroom worker, and I'm skeptical.

Ian

 

[Ian Grant]

The effect would be stronger with a typical greenish Pyro stain than with the more subtle, brownish Catechol stain. But essentially what you get with Pyro and VC paper is a variable low contrast filter built into the negative, which results in highlight compression (which is why many people find it easier to print highlights with stained negatives/VC paper). If you expose the stained negative with say a 2 or 2.5 filter for example (or white light), since the stain proportionate to silver density, you effectively have added a filter which lowers contrast in areas of high density.

I seem to remember that I've suggested that's what's occuuring in some older APUG threads

Ian

 

[Ian Grant]

I've never used Pyrocat HD though so I wonder how pronounced the effect is compared to a stronger greenish stain (eg PMK).

In theory because staining devs give different colour stanins with different films there should be a great variance, but in practice I've found Pyrocat HD works well with all Ilford films , Tmax & Tri-X, and Foma and EFKE films, brilliant with Fortepan 200 - alas no more.

Ian

 

[Leon]

But when I split grade pyro negatives on silver gelatin paper, I see things happening in the highlights that I don't see with for example Xtol or Rodinal. It seems as though the color of the stain in combination with the Grade 5 Ilford filter have a relationship that doesn't exist were it not for the image stain.

Sorry to drag up this old thread ...

Thomas, if Sandy's info (below) is correct, then any stain benefit your are getting from the catechol is nullified by the grade 5 filter!

VC filters of #3.5 or higher [...] in effect eliminate the compensating effect in high contrast scenes because the magenta filtration blocks light to the low contrast green sensitive part of the emulsion.

I've been scouring for this info for quite some time ... given this, it seems that where a neg requires grade between 3 1/2 - 5, it is better to split grade, as the beneficial highlight info in the stain will be preserved by the low contrast exposure, and the shadows properly set by the grade 5 shadow exposure.

So, Thomas, it seems it is not the relationship between the grade 5 and the stain, as the two are incompatible .. if anything, it would be the soft exposure that makes the print sing like a kipper.

 

[Keith Tapscott.]

Ilford HP5+ @400
left side: Pyrocat-HD 1+1+100, 16min
right side: 510-Pyro 1+100, 6.5min

The 510-Pyro seems to have the edge in sharpness and slightly finer grain on my screen over the Pyrocat.

 

[Keith Tapscott.]

The D-76d two-bath and the Pyrocat HD look very close to each other for grain and sharpness.

 

[ChristopherCoy]

This thread is useless without pictures.