Pyrocat-HD Sudden Death: Any Updates?

[koraks]

You can reach Sandy through one of the groups.io platforms he participates in (he set up and still co-administers the carbon printing groups.io) and I'm sure he can be contacted through a personal website as well.

 

[chuckroast]

I did notice that the order and manner of mixing components for Pyrocat-HD is different for Glycol than for water. I always added them in the order specified for water, mixing the phenidone with just a bit of isopropyl alcohol to get it to dissolved fully.

Could the order of adding chemistry make a difference in the longevity?

In any case, I just ginned up 500ml of HDC in Glycol. Let's see how this goes. I do so love the idea of having fewer ingredients to mix

 

[lamerko]

Phenidone dissolves very well in glycol - there is no need to dissolve it in alcohol, which will drastically reduce the glycol.

 

[koraks]

Could the order of adding chemistry make a difference in the longevity?

No, I wouldn't expect so.

 

[jim appleyard]

Sandy King also has a formula for a two-bath/divided Pyrocat developer. I'm travelling now and don't have my darkroom notes with me, but I'm sure you could find it here after a search. It works quite well and may not have the longevity (in theory) that a glycol dev would have, but at least you could keep track of how many rolls you've run thru it (in the neighborhood of 10) before mixing new.

 

[GregY]

Sandy King also has a formula for a two-bath/divided Pyrocat developer. I'm travelling now and don't have my darkroom notes with me, but I'm sure you could find it here after a search. It works quite well and may not have the longevity (in theory) that a glycol dev would have, but at least you could keep track of how many rolls you've run thru it (in the neighborhood of 10) before mixing new.

Jim as far as i know. it's the same formula Part A & Part B....you just develop the film in A and then B...instead of mixing them together. The divided pyrocat also uses more developer than the usual, because you're using it at 10:10:100 instead of 1:1:100.

 

[John Wiegerink]

Jim as far as i know. it's the same formula Part A & Part B....you just develop the film in A and then B...instead of mixing them together. The divided pyrocat also uses more developer than the usual, because you're using it at 10:10:100 instead of 1:1:100.

Yes, that's my understanding too. I might try the 2-bath in the future, but for now the regular HDC version is working and lasting just fine for me,

 

[koraks]

Jim as far as i know. it's the same formula Part A & Part B....you just develop the film in A and then B...instead of mixing them together. The divided pyrocat also uses more developer than the usual, because you're using it at 10:10:100 instead of 1:1:100.

Exactly. The 10:10:100 solution will not have any better longevity than the ordinary working strength developer, so it's effectively one-shot.

 

[tykos]

Alan,
I remember when I first considered trying Pyrocat-HD, after reading all about it here, that IanC made it real clear that the sodium metabisulfite had to be "fresh". Actually, what made me try the HDC version was that I had no fresh sodium metabisulfite on hand when I needed to mix a new batch of HD. I don't know if bad sodium metabisulfite caused chuckroast's sudden death, but I suppose it's possible.

i've read this too, but: how can i determine how "fresh" is my metabisulfite? We just need quite a tiny amount of it (10gr/liter, which is around 10gr per 330 rolls or 1300 4x5 sheets), do we need to buy it fresh for every batch? That's quite a hassle...

 

[chuckroast]

i've read this too, but: how can i determine how "fresh" is my metabisulfite? We just need quite a tiny amount of it (10gr/liter, which is around 10gr per 330 rolls or 1300 4x5 sheets), do we need to buy it fresh for every batch? That's quite a hassle...

I am in the midst of using my first batch of Pyrocat-HDC and, has been noted here and elsewhere, it seems to work pretty much identically to HD. Since HDC uses fewer components and thereby avoids the use of metabisulfite entirely, it's likely to be my goto in the future.

 

[John Wiegerink]

I am in the midst of using my first batch of Pyrocat-HDC and, has been noted here and elsewhere, it seems to work pretty much identically to HD. Since HDC uses fewer components and thereby avoids the use of metabisulfite entirely, it's likely to be my goto in the future.

Those are the reasons I went with the HDC version over the HD and MC versions I had been using. Plus, I think I read that that is what Sandy King is now using.
As to tykos question about finding the freshest metabisulfite? Where I'm at, I go to the busiest brewing and wine making supply store in my city. Their turnover is pretty darn fast and the sodium metabisulfite is sold in small sealed pouches. I don't know what they use for wine making in Italy, but you should be able to find a source of pretty fresh metabisulfite. Italy has been producing wine for a few years now, I think.

 

[chuckroast]

Those are the reasons I went with the HDC version over the HD and MC versions I had been using. Plus, I think I read that that is what Sandy King is now using.
As to tykos question about finding the freshest metabisulfite? Where I'm at, I go to the busiest brewing and wine making supply store in my city. Their turnover is pretty darn fast and the sodium metabisulfite is sold in small sealed pouches. I don't know what they use for wine making in Italy, but you should be able to find a source of pretty fresh metabisulfite. Italy has been producing wine for a few years now, I think.

The most important thing about this is to confirm that the metabisulfite is working properly by sampling the wine thoroughly...

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

As soon as I use up my regular HD, I'll go to the HDC version. Fewer chemicals is appealing to me.

 

[John Wiegerink]

As soon as I use up my regular HD, I'll go to the HDC version. Fewer chemicals is appealing to me.

I'm curious to see what you think of HDC Andy. My first batch seemed just a little more potent than HD, but that could have been an error on my part. "I should note that mine is the glycol variant." Since then, I have settled in nicely with it.

 

[koraks]

i've read this too, but: how can i determine how "fresh" is my metabisulfite? We just need quite a tiny amount of it (10gr/liter, which is around 10gr per 330 rolls or 1300 4x5 sheets), do we need to buy it fresh for every batch? That's quite a hassle...

Dry sodium metabisulfite is stable. There's no reason it would automatically decompose as long as it's kept dry.

 

[lamerko]

Two or three years ago I opened my last remaining package of ORWO A-03 fix. It comes in a two-part plastic bag. It's a classic formula with sodium thiosulfate and sodium metabisulfite. I think the metabisulfite I keep in a plastic jar is still good, even though it's been over 30 years...

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I'm curious to see what you think of HDC Andy. My first batch seemed just a little more potent than HD, but that could have been an error on my part. "I should note that mine is the glycol variant." Since then, I have settled in nicely with it.

I'll be mixing up the glycol variant as well. Happy New Year!

 

[John Wiegerink]

I'll be mixing up the glycol variant as well. Happy New Year!

Same to you, Andy!

 

[pmviewcam]

I'm currently trying to resolve why my Pyrocat HD in PG suddenly stopped working about 2 weeks ago. I have developed three rolls of Rollei IR 120, and 2 10x8 sheets Foma 200 all of which came out completely blank. It was if I had developed unexposed film. Since then have put through 5 short test rolls of 35mm Foma 100: with new batch of HD PG one came out blank; one roll done in HDC PG came out normally; one in new batch of HD in water came out normally; the two other rolls, one in Rodinal 1:50, and fresh Perceptol stock came out blank. Developed in Jobo processor, chemicals made up with distilled water, no cross contamination, lens and camera shutters all tested ok.

Then I stand developed 8 sheets of Foma 100 in HDC PG, and all came out normally.

This happened once before, and I just accepted it was operator error, now I don't think so. The chemicals were all fresh from the local supplier, my scales read to 0.01 gm, and I use a heated magnetic stirrer. All the Part A chemicals were added in order and dissolved quickly and completely. Part B took a long time to go into solution, and not quite completely.

In the process of developing some sheets of Foma 100 5x4 in the Jobo in HDC PG, and then will do another run with HD in water. It will be interesting to see the results.

Peter.

 

[chuckroast]

I'm currently trying to resolve why my Pyrocat HD in PG suddenly stopped working about 2 weeks ago. I have developed three rolls of Rollei IR 120, and 2 10x8 sheets Foma 200 all of which came out completely blank. It was if I had developed unexposed film. Since then have put through 5 short test rolls of 35mm Foma 100: with new batch of HD PG one came out blank; one roll done in HDC PG came out normally; one in new batch of HD in water came out normally; the two other rolls, one in Rodinal 1:50, and fresh Perceptol stock came out blank. Developed in Jobo processor, chemicals made up with distilled water, no cross contamination, lens and camera shutters all tested ok.

Then I stand developed 8 sheets of Foma 100 in HDC PG, and all came out normally.

This happened once before, and I just accepted it was operator error, now I don't think so. The chemicals were all fresh from the local supplier, my scales read to 0.01 gm, and I use a heated magnetic stirrer. All the Part A chemicals were added in order and dissolved quickly and completely. Part B took a long time to go into solution, and not quite completely.

In the process of developing some sheets of Foma 100 5x4 in the Jobo in HDC PG, and then will do another run with HD in water. It will be interesting to see the results.

Peter.

I wonder if this might be temp related.

 

[John Wiegerink]

I'm currently trying to resolve why my Pyrocat HD in PG suddenly stopped working about 2 weeks ago. I have developed three rolls of Rollei IR 120, and 2 10x8 sheets Foma 200 all of which came out completely blank. It was if I had developed unexposed film. Since then have put through 5 short test rolls of 35mm Foma 100: with new batch of HD PG one came out blank; one roll done in HDC PG came out normally; one in new batch of HD in water came out normally; the two other rolls, one in Rodinal 1:50, and fresh Perceptol stock came out blank. Developed in Jobo processor, chemicals made up with distilled water, no cross contamination, lens and camera shutters all tested ok.

Then I stand developed 8 sheets of Foma 100 in HDC PG, and all came out normally.

This happened once before, and I just accepted it was operator error, now I don't think so. The chemicals were all fresh from the local supplier, my scales read to 0.01 gm, and I use a heated magnetic stirrer. All the Part A chemicals were added in order and dissolved quickly and completely. Part B took a long time to go into solution, and not quite completely.

In the process of developing some sheets of Foma 100 5x4 in the Jobo in HDC PG, and then will do another run with HD in water. It will be interesting to see the results.

Peter.

Did you heat the glycol when you made the HD that went bad?

 

[john_s]

Ian Grant suggested using more metabisulphite to be safe. He said the effect on pH of mixed diluted developer is insignificant. But I agree, the HDC approach makes sense.

 

[relistan]

I don’t know if it’s applicable here, but it might be, if you heated it to help absorption.

Heating glycol over about 100 degrees C seems to cause problems (aside from being dangerous if spilled on you). Officially it doesn’t oxidize until 133C but I think it may be that parts of the fluid get that hot even when the whole temp average is not that high. In any case, it breaks down past that point and it’s not the same afterwards. The pH also changes. If you’re heating glycol to help dissolve ingredients, I suggest not to get it over about 80C. You don’t need it hotter than that and it is safer and doesn’t break down. I have not mixed either of these formulas, but do have lots of experience with glycol based developers.

 

[Alan Johnson]

I think it is possible to check if the Part A of Pyrocat HD is still active using pH paper. The pH of the concentrate should be between 1 and 2.
I have some Pyrocat HD with Part A stored in a 2/3 full glass bottle that is at least 4 years old and still works.
My sodium metabisulfite in a plastic bottle is a few years old and has a slight whiff of sulfur dioxide gas.

 

[John Wiegerink]

Chuckroast has not said he used heated glycol, but I suspect that he did when mixing the HD variant. If all else was followed to the letter on mixing the batch of HD, then that might be his problem. Karl explains it above better than I could. I think that the glycol starts to change color a little when you get it too hot. I have never had HD go bad, and the last batch was 6 years old when I dumped it and switched over to HDC. I didn't dump the HD batch until about a year after I made HDC, simply because I wanted to be sure the newer HDC version was a good switch. I had the same luck with Pyrocat-MC. All my Pyrocat developers were made in glycol.
I don't know what cross contamination could do? I would think it would be hard to cross contaminate, but you never know.