Pyrocat HD - Mix A

[Diane Cliffe]

Hello all,
New here and dabbling in processing my own films.
I have just mixed some Photographers Formulary Pyrocat HD and believe I have a problem. When mixing The chemicals for Mix A the solution became gunky (not sure if this is a chemical term?), see attached photos.
I mixed at approx 125 F with de-ionised water. This is the second batch that has turned out like this, so either I am doing something very wrong or it’s the chemicals. Any ideas?

Can the solution still be used as it is, as I seem to be throwing away money at the moment ?

Many thanks Diane

 

[Ian Grant]

Have yo used the right volume of water ?

I've never seen anything like that and have been mixing Pyrocat HD for about 15 years ago, if you live close I'd sort it out for you.

Ian

 

[Diane Cliffe]

Have yo used the right volume of water ?

I've never seen anything like that and have been mixing Pyrocat HD for about 15 years ago, if you live close I'd sort it out for you.

Ian

75ml to mix and top up to 100ml. The bottle in the original post is 100ml size. I live in North Wales, unfortunately!

 

[Ian Grant]

There's only 10g of chemicals in the 100ml and all easily soluble, so that's very odd. I wonder if the pack's incorrectly labelled. What's the weight of Part B ?

I checked the PF website and noticed they use the wrong weight of Potassium carbonate in Pt B, should be 750g in 1 litre of water, May be just a mistake in the datasheet. I've 30litresbof Part A on the shelf, and mixing more next week.

Ian

 

[Diane Cliffe]

I am adding the chemicals one at a time, as they are listed on the data sheet and, it is not until I add the potassium bromide that it starts to precipitate/ go gunky. I am trusting that each packet of the different chemicals has been weighed accordingly, that is, I am not re-weighing them.
Maybe I should mix all the dry chemicals together and then add the water.

Part B looks ok, 75g in 100ml.

I have one packet left ...

 

[esearing]

500ML kits are the smallest I would make and they have about a six month shelf life if you do not evacuate the air.
PF had a bad batch of Phenidone that would not mix. Let it sit in the bottle a few days and see if it will go into solution. PF will replace it if you email them(Sometimes). If your part B is correct Dont throw it out. You can later experiment with other Pyro formulas and they all use same part B. Pyrocat M is easy to make and so far is more stable than HD for me.

 

[Ian Grant]

Eric, you're probably right about it being a bad batch of Phenidone, everything else is very soluble. If made up with reasonably fresh Metabisulphite Part A last over 3 years in a pet full bottle. Bisulphite is lower grade and not as Good a preservative.

Diane, if it doesn't dissolve in a couple of days get in touch I'm sure can spare some Part A .

Ian

 

[Diane Cliffe]

I am reading about the phenidone issue now. If other users can confirm this is what happened when they mixed with the bad batch of phenidone I would appreciate their feedback. My friend bought the chemicals in the USA last September, so it may very well be a bad batch. Brilliant!

I will start mixing the new packet with phenidone first to see if it goes into solution or not. (I have already thrown away the part A mix I made this morning! I am too impatient as I want to develop some film before I go away tomorrow!).

Thanks for the offer Ian.

Diane

 

[Diane Cliffe]

Should Part A mixed look like the milky solution in the left hand picture ?

I mixed the phenidone separately then the other chemicals - the picture showing two solutions. The phenidone is mixed in the graduated glass on the right.

 

[Ian Grant]

That looks like the Phenidone is in suspension, in 40+ years of mixing developers etc from raw chemicals I've never seen that happen and I've used quite a lot of Phenidone. It's possible adding some alcohol would help dissolve the Phenidone, it's more soluble in Glyco and other alcohols than water.

First though try warming the Phenidone solution it may then dissolve.

Ian

 

[Diane Cliffe]

This is the bottle after 2 hrs, Phenidone very much in suspension. Very frustrating!

I will warm it again in an attempt to dissolve it, but it was prepared in warm water and has stood for a while in a warm water bath after mixing.

I will contact PF and ask if they can offer any explanation.

Thanks for your assistance today.

 

[GLS]

Sorry you've been having issues with the formulation. It may well be a dodgy batch of phenidone; possibly pre-oxidised to some extent, or maybe it has been crystallised in such a way as to give it lower than usual solubility in water. You could try adding some isopropyl alcohol (say 5-10%) of a high purity to the part A and see if it dissolves then. Either that or seek a replacement from PF.

Don't give up, as Pyrocat-HD is a magnificent developer. You may not be aware, but there is in fact a UK seller of the pre-made mixtures (and furthermore they sell it with Part A mixed in glycol, which gives it a longer shelf life):

http://www.wetplatesupplies.com/pyrocat-hd-premixed.html

I bought the 500 mL kit from them, which goes a long way.

 

[Ian Grant]

One issue, Phenidone dissolves better in acid or alkali solutions than neutral, As the Sodium Metabisulphite is added first the solution is acidic.

Ian

 

[Diane Cliffe]

I will persevere with Pyrocat HD, but I will need to use up my PMK first. Thanks all, Diane

 

[James Bleifus]

Well, this is disappointing. I have the same problem with some Photographers’ Formulary Pyrocat that I received yesterday from B&H. Either this bad batch is still out in the wild or there’s a new problem batch. The problem was immediately apparent when I started mixing in the Phenidone, and a half hour of stirring had no effect, nor did sitting all night. I have a second package that I’m going to mix up today in hopes that it’s not tainted too.

On a side note. While I was researching this problem I found a number of posts slamming Photographers’ Formulary. Let me add my voice to the conversation by saying that, except for this one event, I’m very pleased with all of my PF dealings.

Cheers, James

 

[mpirie]

I've seen this type of suspension with the 100ml kit from PF before too. In fact, i mixed up two 100ml kits to give me 200ml of both A and B.

Although there was a white suspension in Part A, it worked as expected. I put it down to mixing the components in the order given in the list in the instructions.

For the next PF kit i made up, i used the mixing order that Sandy provides on his Pyrocat HD web page. That includes mixing the Phenidone with some alcohol, prior to combining it with the other chemicals.

Mike

 

[James Bleifus]

Thanks, Mike. I’ve experienced no problem previously, and double, double checked to ensure that I mixed the chemicals in order. I had the same problem this morning with my second package.

I’m not comfortable using the chemicals in suspension, especially when I can see white particles. I contacted B&H but realized that they couldn’t send me a replacement order since their remaining stock likely has the same problems. Luckily I’ve been jonesing to try Ansco 130 for film development (and I have a good amount in hand), so I think I’ll work with 130 for a while.

Cheers, James

 

[Ian Grant]

In the past 3 weeks I've had conversations with someone who has bought PF Pyrocat HD and weights were significantly out. 1.6g Bromide instead of 1, around 730g Potassium Carbonate not 750g, other weights were off as well. Telephone calls to PF were met with no help at all.

Over the last few years I've mixed many litres of Pyrocat HD and PArt A dissolves easily, never an issue.

Possibly more worrying is PF use Sodium Bisulphite where the formula calls for Sodium Metabisulphite, what's sold as Sodium Bisulphite is a mixture of Bisulphite and Metabisulphite and the proportion can vary. Metabisulphite is a strong anti-oxidant, Bisulphite weker. This does affect the shelf life of Part A once mixed. If you've doubts on the differences read the MSDS sheets and sales literature from JT Baker and you'll see the suggested uses in the food industry.

It's the Metabisulphite that prevents Part A oxidising during storage, it will slowly break down to Bisuphite and then Sulphite. Pure Bisulphite (with mo Metabisulphite) is actually very unstable and has a very short shelf life as an Analytical Reagent. With fresh Metabisulphite I've had Part A last over 3 years and in a part full bottle, this was not deliberate just taht I had Pyrocat stored in the UK while living in Turkey and then vice versa.

Ian

 

[James Bleifus]

Thanks, Ian. Maybe I’ll try and source my Pyrocat through ArtCraft if 130 doesn’t work out. I’m told it’s much easier to import kits rather than just bulk chemistry into Viet Nam, so my sources are limited.

Cheers, James

 

[mpirie]

Do we know whether the incorrect volumes of component chemicals will make a noticeable difference to the results of development?

I know they will have "some" effect, but is it a significant one?

Maybe Sandy can chime in with his thoughts on inaccurate volumes?

Surely PF are doing themselves no favours by giving out too much (or too little) of the constituent chemicals.

Mike

 

[GLS]

1.6g Bromide instead of 1

Wow, that's beyond sloppy.

 

[Ian Grant]

Do we know whether the incorrect volumes of component chemicals will make a noticeable difference to the results of development?

I know they will have "some" effect, but is it a significant one?

Maybe Sandy can chime in with his thoughts on inaccurate volumes?

Surely PF are doing themselves no favours by giving out too much (or too little) of the constituent chemicals.

Mike

It's possible PF don't realise the inaccuracies are happening, I don't know how large a concern it is. Small inaccuracies will be un-detectable in normal use, actually the 1.6g Bromide instead of 1g won;t really be an issue as the level once diluted is so low anyway. Inaccuracies of developing agents will be more critical.

Ian

 

[john_s]

Wow, that's beyond sloppy.

Very sloppy. Actually I mix original Pyrocat-HD without any bromide. There was a post by Sandy to say that the bromide was desirable if one wanted minimal base density for alternative processes but for ordinary enlarging leaving it out wouldn't make much difference, and might even add a tiny bit of film speed.

 

[john_s]

It's possible PF don't realise the inaccuracies are happening, I don't know how large a concern it is. Small inaccuracies will be un-detectable in normal use, actually the 1.6g Bromide instead of 1g won;t really be an issue as the level once diluted is so low anyway. Inaccuracies of developing agents will be more critical.

Ian

Even worse is a "bad batch" of phenidone! That is really shocking to me.

 

[James Bleifus]

Just to follow up. B&H, which has the most amazing customer service, offered to ship replacement Pyrocat to me when they have it in stock or to give me a refund. Since I’m quite pleased with my early results with Ansco 130, I requested for a store credit.

Cheers, James