Pyrocat HD: Different films in same tank

[vet173]

Sandy,
Is two bath posible with Pyrocat-P also?
Thanks,
John

 

[sanking]

Sandy,
Is two bath posible with Pyrocat-P also?
Thanks,
John

I am fairly sure that you could do the two bath with Pyrocat-P, but I suspect that you would have to increase the p-aminophenol a bit to keep the speed. In testing Pyrocat-P I already get slightly lower speed than with -HD and -MC.

Let me know if you try it. I don't have any Pyrocat-P mixed right now and also believe I am out of p-aminophenol so can not try it myself.

Sandy

 

[sanking]

I did some more tests today with other films, FP4+, T-MAX 100 and Acros. With both Diafine, a commercial product, and with Pyrocat-HD divided.

One of the things you will find is that two-bath development with a given formula will not result in the same average gradient with different films. Instructions for some other two-part developer, Diafine for example, suggest this to be the case, but it is not so. Films show their own characteristics with this form of development, as they do with traditional one-bath development.

Another thing, two-bath development with the slightly modified Pyrocat-HD appears to work fine with rotary processing, though you will need to make some compensation for time for any given film. For T-MAX 100 the standard procedure described earlier, i.e. 6 minutes in A plus 10 minutes in B, gave negatives of the same Dmax and density range as negatives developed with rotary processing for 4 minutes in A and 4 minutes in B.

Sandy King

 

[jim appleyard]

Sandy, I usually mix my HD with metol, not phenidone. What would you say were good starting dev times for this formualtion? No need to do a test, a rough guess will do nicely. Thanks. J

 

[sanking]

Sandy, I usually mix my HD with metol, not phenidone. What would you say were good starting dev times for this formualtion? No need to do a test, a rough guess will do nicely. Thanks. J

How much metol do you use per liter of stock solution?

If the amount is about 10X the amount of phenidone I would recommend that you start with 6+10 for minimal agitation and 4+4 for rotary.

Sandy

 

[sanking]

Sandy, I usually mix my HD with metol, not phenidone. What would you say were good starting dev times for this formualtion? No need to do a test, a rough guess will do nicely. Thanks. J

Update on this.

I just developed a roll of 120 Rollei Pan 25 in Pyrocat-MC with two-bath development and the negatives look absolutely great. I used the 1:10 dilution, with no additional metol to the solution.

Procedure

1. 2 minute pre-so
2. 6 minutes in Solution A
3. 10 minutes in Solution B
4. 5 minutes in water stop
5. 10 second acetic stop
5. fixer for five minutes

This was a real outdoor scene of Yoshino cherry trees in bloom, and the negatives are without question the nicest looking ones I have been able to get from Rollei Pan25, and that includes development in the recommended Rollei developer. And I rated at box speed. Light soft but beautiful. SBR probably about 6.5, though I did not measure.

I am developing as I write a roll of Fuji Acros in the same solution. More later.

Sandy

 

[Richard Wasserman]

Sandy,

I tried 2 bath Pyrocat HD today with a few rolls of 120 FP-4+ that I had sitting around waiting to be processed. I had a lot of trouble with uneven development. I presoaked for 5 minutes and agitated initially for 15 seconds and then 3 inversions at 3/4. 1/2, and 1/4 of the remaining time. 6 minutes A, 10 minutes B, and 5 minute in plain water. I tried 6 rolls all together in 3 different batches on stainless steel reels in a 1 liter SS tank. Most of the film has swirly looking striated patterns that I think may be from insufficient agitation. Has anyone else reported this problem?

I will try another batch tomorrow and will agitate every 1 minute at shorter times to see if this helps, unless you have any other suggestions. The technique is a very interesting one. Except for the defects the negatives look very nice and should be very easy to print. I exposed the FP-4 at 100 EI and will try 125-160 next time.

Richard Wasserman

 

[sanking]

Sandy,

I tried 2 bath Pyrocat HD today with a few rolls of 120 FP-4+ that I had sitting around waiting to be processed. I had a lot of trouble with uneven development.

Richard Wasserman

Hi Richard,

Thanks for letting me know. You are probably the first one to try this, and the first to report a problem. My first tests were with sheet film, cut in 2X5 strips for processing in a stainless tank.

I can not test this right away as I have no 120 FP4+ roll film on hand. But I have several other films in 120 format, and will see what happens. I also have some FP4+ in sheet that I can test again.

So far the only 120 roll film I have developed is Rollei Pan25, and Fuji
Acros. Both came out exceptionally clean and without any kind of streaking or stains.

BTW, all my tests so far with roll film have been on stainless reels, in 500 ml tanks.

Meanwhile, go slow with this. I am reporting results as I go along, so lots to learn!!


Best,

Sandy

 

[sanking]

Richard,

I developed three more different 120 roll films today with the method I outlined earlier and they were all very clean with no signs of streaking or uneven development. The films were HP54+, Konida Infrared, and Pan F. All are very old film and I had never tested any of them, but I just exposed for the shadows and developed 6+10 with the 1:10 dilution of Pyrocat-HD. All three rolls look really nice, with slightly high B+F because of age. The Konica film expired in 1992, the Pan-F in 1995, and not sure about the HP5+, but it is at least ten years old.

The point is not that the two-bath method is good with old film, but that results are almost fool-proof. I am thinking that it is the most idiot-proof method of developing ever invented.

Sandy

 

[Richard Wasserman]

I did a roll today of TMY-2 and it came out very well and was very easy to print. I still have to try FP-4 again to see if I can get it to work.

Richard Wasserman

 

[Cor]

The Konica film expired in 1992, the Pan-F in 1995, and not sure about the HP5+, but it is at least ten years old.

The point is not that the two-bath method is good with old film, but that results are almost fool-proof. I am thinking that it is the most idiot-proof method of developing ever invented.

Sandy

Sandy,

Did the Konica film still exhibit an IR effect? Some people claim that the IR dyes are not very stable (I have experienced that with the first run of MACOIR film, not with Kodak HIE or later runs of MACO IR sheet film).

Best,

Cor

(still got one lonely roll of expired Konica IR 35mm film in the fridge)

 

[sanking]

Sandy,

Did the Konica film still exhibit an IR effect? Some people claim that the IR dyes are not very stable (I have experienced that with the first run of MACOIR film, not with Kodak HIE or later runs of MACO IR sheet film).

Best,

Cor

(still got one lonely roll of expired Konica IR 35mm film in the fridge)

Cor,

Yes, it still had a very big IR effect. I used it with an orange filter.

Sandy

 

[Guillaume Zuili]

Hi sandy,

This 2 bath would work on rotary processing ? The 5 minutes in water stop while rotating is an issue or not ?

Guillaume

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

This is a really interesting comment to read, as I had huge problems with uneven development of some Ilford FP4+ I shot and developed in two-bath Diafine a couple of years ago. (It was a pain in the rear too, because it was one of those rare occasions that I actually traveled to a specific location just to photograph).
That makes the film the common denominator (Ilford FP4+), and the fact that both times the developer was a two-bath kind.

I should say that Ilford FP4+ is my favorite film of all time and all speeds and categories and have had nothing but great luck with it in Pyrocat-HD and -MC using standard and minimal agitation techniques. Never a miss with it, except for the Diafine situation.

Is there anything that can be done with regard to agitation to alleviate those problems?

- Thomas

I did a roll today of TMY-2 and it came out very well and was very easy to print. I still have to try FP-4 again to see if I can get it to work.

Richard Wasserman

 

[Richard Wasserman]

Thomas,

I was thinking that maybe the problem is something inherent in FP-4+, but it seemed unlikely as it still does, even though your experience with Diafine is similar to mine with 2 bath Pyrocat. I don't know what to make of that. I have a roll of 120 FP-4 to process later tonight and I will try more frequent agitation, maybe every minute with less time in the B solution, to see if that makes a difference. I am hoping to get this combination to work as FP-4+ is also my favorite film and using Pyrocat as a 2 bath developer is wonderful (when it works). If I can't make progress with this combination I'll simply go back to using Pyrocat in the usual way as it works very well. Stay tuned...

Richard Wasserman

 

[sanking]

Hi sandy,

This 2 bath would work on rotary processing ? The 5 minutes in water stop while rotating is an issue or not ?

Guillaume

Yes, the two-bath method definitely works with rotary processing, but you will need less time in both A and B solution. I exposed some 5X7 sheet film today, in very hash light, and developed for in Pyrocat-HD 1:10, four minutes in both Bath A and Bath B, with rotary processing (two sheets in an 8X10 Unicolor drum on a motor base). The negatives are very evenly developed.

One of the keys to this method is to expose for the shadows. I do this by taking an incident reading in the shadows, one in the highlights, and average the two for exposure. If you do this, the nature of the two-bath method is that it is almost impossible to get highlights that are too dense for your process. Of course, time and agitation do have to be accounted for, but that is a one-shot deal.

Sandy King

 

[sanking]

T
Is there anything that can be done with regard to agitation to alleviate those problems?


Thomas,

You could try continuous agitation, as with Jobo or BTZS or home-made tubes.

Continuous agitations bumps contrast, so try reducing the time to 4+4.

The problem with FP4+ roll with two-bath development is interesting. All other films that I have tried with two-bath are giving nice, even development. Unfortunately I don't have any FP4+ 120 filmk on hand to test, but I will try some soon.

Sandy King

 

[Philippe-Georges]

Update on this.

I just developed a roll of 120 Rollei Pan 25 in Pyrocat-MC with two-bath development and the negatives look absolutely great. I used the 1:10 dilution, with no additional metol to the solution.

Procedure

1. 2 minute pre-so
2. 6 minutes in Solution A
3. 10 minutes in Solution B
4. 5 minutes in water stop
5. 10 second acetic stop
5. fixer for five minutes

This was a real outdoor scene of Yoshino cherry trees in bloom, and the negatives are without question the nicest looking ones I have been able to get from Rollei Pan25, and that includes development in the recommended Rollei developer. And I rated at box speed. Light soft but beautiful. SBR probably about 6.5, though I did not measure.

I am developing as I write a roll of Fuji Acros in the same solution. More later.

Sandy

Dear Sandy,

Yesterday I developed a Rollei Retro 400/120 (=APX) following your process as quoted above.
The film looked a little less dense as developed according to the One-Bath procedure in Pyro-HD and the brownish colour was rather less too. But the negatives seemed far from bad and very well printable to me, I had not the time to try this out yet, and, I can not measure this with my densitometer, a pity!
What stroke me was that the second bath came out as dark and troubled as unfiltered Trappist Ale!
I had to dump that, but I wonder if there is no alternative for this mixture of Potassium Carbonate, 250 gr. in 300 cc of water takes a lot of time and care not to have a crystalline deposit. Could, I dare to suggest, (10 %) Sodium Hydroxide not be an alternative, but you will know better.
As the first bath can be used again, don't you think the second should be to?

Never the less, the idea of a Two-Bath Pyro developer is fantastic and thank you for that!

Sincerely,

Philippe

 

[sanking]

Dear Sandy,
Could, I dare to suggest, (10 %) Sodium Hydroxide not be an alternative, but you will know better.
As the first bath can be used again, don't you think the second should be to?

Never the less, the idea of a Two-Bath Pyro developer is fantastic and thank you for that!

Sincerely,

Philippe

Philippe,

Sodium hydroxide should work as the second bath, but you will have to work out the best percent solution and time. Barry Thornton's original two-part Diaxactol used potassium hydroxide for the second bath and sodium should give similar results.

Sandy

 

[Richard Wasserman]

I think I've solved the FP-4+ problem I was having with 2 bath Pyrocat. As I was thinking about it, it occurred to me that the uneven development artifacts looked very similar to the ones I had when I started developing 4x5 FP-4 with Pyrocat in a Slosher type tray. I solved that problem by using vigorous initial agitation for 1 minute and then gentle agitation as called for. I tried that last night and it worked perfectly, the roll of 120 I processed is perfect and very evenly developed. I agitated continuously for the first minute when the film went into both the A and B solutions. and then gently at 3 evenly spaced intervals.

This is a very interesting technique that I will definitely be exploring further. I am starting a project using a Noblex camera which because of its very wide view often has extremes of exposure. The compensating action of the 2 bath Pyrocat I think will be very useful. Thanks once again Sandy for all your efforts.

Richard Wasserman

 

[sanking]

I think I've solved the FP-4+ problem I was having with 2 bath Pyrocat. As I was thinking about it, it occurred to me that the uneven development artifacts looked very similar to the ones I had when I started developing 4x5 FP-4 with Pyrocat in a Slosher type tray. I solved that problem by using vigorous initial agitation for 1 minute and then gentle agitation as called for. I tried that last night and it worked perfectly, the roll of 120 I processed is perfect and very evenly developed. I agitated continuously for the first minute when the film went into both the A and B solutions. and then gently at 3 evenly spaced intervals.

Richard Wasserman

Richard,

Thanks for your report on the new agitation method. I am going to test this myself since in theory it should give even results with all films.

Sandy

 

[Guillaume Zuili]

Thank you Sandy,
I'm going to try it very soon.
Guillaume

 

[el wacho]

hi all,

i'm going to mix up some pyrocat hd to use as a two bath. regarding the keeping properties of an A bath ( at 1:10 dilution ), would increasing the sodium metabisulfite (at the dilution stage, not at the stock mixing stage ) be necessary? how much ? 10g/L ? less?

any help pointing me in the right direction would be helpful.

ps. i'm using the metol version.

 

[timeUnit]

If you're using 1+9 dilution of the two solutions, I assume that the solutions are not used once and then discarded, as is the case with one-bath use of PyroHD? Correct? Is it safe to assume that the 1+9 solution has approx 10 times the capacity of the 1+1+100 one-bath solution?

 

[sanking]

hi all,

i'm going to mix up some pyrocat hd to use as a two bath. regarding the keeping properties of an A bath ( at 1:10 dilution ), would increasing the sodium metabisulfite (at the dilution stage, not at the stock mixing stage ) be necessary? how much ? 10g/L ? less?

any help pointing me in the right direction would be helpful.

ps. i'm using the metol version.

I have not found any need to increase the metabisulfite in the working solution. The metabisulfite is in the solution primarily as a preservative, though it adds a bit of synergy in the working solution. But increasing it even a bit can kill the stain.

Sandy King