PVA (glue) coagulation with india ink

[removed account4]

i have done this successfully in the past, but today i had trouble
anyone else have the same troubles ?

i mixed speedball india ink with PVA glue, first
stuff i have used before with a different brand of ink ..
make a clumpy mess ...
then with elmer's white glue ( glue-all ) also PVA
also the same india ink, also mixed the 2 together also clumped
so much it was useless.

i can't remember the brand of ink i used previously, it WASN'T speedball ...
but i had no issues at all, ... anyone know what the deal is with speedball india ink ??

thanks
john

 

[DWThomas]

No actual idea, but in my own experience (for drafting use), Higgins used to be the common brand found "back in the day". I think it was actually based on some sort of shellac formulation, but I suppose over the ensuing 50 years there could have been many changes in the ingredients.

 

[removed account4]

thanks dave.
i'll look into that...

 

[paul ron]

water based india ink or glue doesn't mix with the pva solvent.

 

[removed account4]

thanks paul, makes sense ...
maybe I used a different ink before ? could have sworn it was India ink ....maybe 'll use a black reed dye
I'll have to call Elmer tomorrow ...

 

[Steve Smith]

water based india ink or glue doesn't mix with the pva solvent.

It should as PVA glue is regularly diluted with water to use as a wall sealant/size.


Steve.

 

[Ian Grant]

water based india ink or glue doesn't mix with the pva solvent.

That's odd because the PVA solvent is water

I mix PVA with a variety of other things like water based acrylics paints,, Inkjet pigments and India ink should be no different, sometimes it takes a bit of mixing as the PVA has a low water content.

Ian

 

[pdeeh]

have you tried fresh PVA from the store john? if your pva has been sitting around it might have got contaminated/frozen in the outhouse/probed by aliens ...

 

[guangong]

As someone who draws with ink and was at one time a cartographer I would recommend Pelikan Indian ink. Higgins is a terrible ink. We described it as schwach. Higgins will also eventually flake of of the support. Any good art supply store should have Pelikan inks (if you can find a good art supply store...they have gone the way of good camera stores).

 

[paul ron]

oh im sorry... pva is water based, aka wood glue. but the ink is alcohol based with shelac. probably the alcohol is causing tge polymer to clot.

incompatable solvents either way.

 

[removed account4]

pdeeh, it is brand new glue i am using,
i spoke with elmer's and they have no experience with
putting dyes or inks or anything in their product.
i am waiting to hear back from speedball ... ( missed his call )

its probably and additive in their ink, cause i've successfully inked other glues
without any issues. i'll probably just go to wally's and get some montrose colors ink
or more than likely some black reed dye and suspend the dye in the glue...
its kind of a PITA .. but i know reed dye works wonders with photographs,
so i am guessing it will work wonders with glue LOL

 

[paul ron]

what are you planing to use your black glue on?

 

[removed account4]

well, i just heard back from speedball. i guess there is an ingredient in their ink that doesn't like glue.
paul, i am painting it on old bellows to "re-juvinate" them

 

[lloyd]

+1 pelikan worth a try but not sure

why not black watercolor or acrylic

pva is regularly mixed with other water based adhesives,
ie methyl cellulose and wheat paste in bookbinding

 

[mdarnton]

Most india inks use borax or a similar alkalai to dissolve the shellac in water. Too much borax or a stronger alkalai will clot glue. If you still want to experiment try adding a drop or two of vinegar to the ink to calm it down a bit. That might work, might not work, or might ruin the ink.

 

[Jim Jones]

+. . . why not black watercolor or acrylic. . . .

Yes, indeed. When a bellows has a fiber lining, I use liquid artists acrylic paint well scrubbed into the lining with an old soft toothbrush.

 

[juan]

I use liquid electrical tape from Ace Hardware. It's black, lightproof and flexible.
Juan

 

[paul ron]

black shoe polish is great for making a bellows look new n crisp.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

If you are fixing pinholes John I have found Plastidip to be a hell of a lot more convenient. Cheap too.

 

[DREW WILEY]

??? *&%^!!!! Shoe polish is wax and will prevent any kind of legit rubberized compound from being used. And India ink is obviously a shellac dispersal in alcohol, while PVA glue is an ordinary water emulsion, so there you have it. If you're just trying to patch pinholes, a couple decent ideas
have already been floated.

 

[removed account4]

turns out after doing this little project again ( since i know it worked the first times i did it )
i was putting too much ink in the mix .. only a small amount of ink is needed and no coagulation happens ..

 

[Rick A]

jnanian, I use Puffy fabric paint on bellows to close pinholes, works perfectly fine. I buy it at Wally's or other art supply shops, acrylic based and is flexible.

 

[removed account4]

thanks rick !

 

[Patrick Robert James]

Last time I plugged pinholes I used Permatex Black gasket maker. I figure if it can withstand a couple decades of abuse holding in gear oil, it shouldn't have too much trouble keeping light out of a bellows. I used a pin to push through the pinhole, put a little Permatex on the pin, then pulled it back through. A little on the outside as well, and let it cure. Dunzo.

 

[removed account4]

patrick robert james,
thanks for your suggestions

aside from the magical and sometimes failing pva and india ink, there are a few other alternatives in this thread including yours which sound great
i wish there was a thread or sticky that had "bellows fix solutions"

oh, a couple more to the mix

both bostick and sullivan and equinox photographic sell some sort of bellows fix "stuff"
(or they used to)