Puzzled by Paper

[sanking]

Phil and Sandy, you don't need an acid paper; the sensitizer itself is acid enough. You need non-buffered / de-buffered / neutral paper - which is also free from other contaminants that may damage the printing process...

Regards,
Loris.

That may indeed be the case. However, I have not seen any adverse effects from simply drying the paper after the pre-soak acid bath and using it as is. If I had to wash the paper after the acid bath I would probably reconsider if the extra step was worth my time and trouble. I have a fairly small work space and washing and drying large sheets of art papers is already a fairly onerous task as is!!

Sandy

 

[pschwart]

That may indeed be the case. However, I have not seen any adverse effects from simply drying the paper after the pre-soak acid bath and using it as is. If I had to wash the paper after the acid bath I would probably reconsider if the extra step was worth my time and trouble. I have a fairly small work space and washing and drying large sheets of art papers is already a fairly onerous task as is!!

Sandy

That's exactly my take: papers that would require an acid soak *and* wash are not worth the bother. An acid soak alone is enough to make me think twice about using a paper but it does expand the possibilities so it's a good technique to keep in reserve.

 

[Loris Medici]

So, you're acidifying right before (or close to the) printing session, right? That's not my case, I usually acidify paper right after the purchase, as a batch (10 sheets at a time), wash and store. I then use up the paper incrementally. With this workflow, washing is an absolute necessity - since I would definitely want to stop the action of the acid as soon as it has done its job, but OTOH, the "extra step" of washing doesn't take too much extra time in a batch processing context. (While one sheet is in the acid bath, the other(s) are in the wash...)

Regards,
Loris.

 

[sanking]

So, you're acidifying right before (or close to the) printing session, right?

Regards,
Loris.

Loris,

Yes, I do the acid pre-soak not too long before printing. I generally do about 6-8 sheets at a time, and then print with them over the next week or so.

I am too old and forgetful to work like you. If I were to acidify a large number of sheets I would wind up storing some of them and then I would forget that I had acidified them. So I have to do it again. I could take notes and try to get organized, but then I might lose the notes!! This could drive me crazy if I were to dwell on it, but fortunately some distraction usually comes along and I forget all about the problem.

Sandy

 

[pschwart]

Loris,

Yes, I do the acid pre-soak not too long before printing. I generally do about 6-8 sheets at a time, and then print with them over the next week or so.

I am too old and forgetful to work like you. If I were to acidify a large number of sheets I would wind up storing some of them and then I would forget that I had acidified them. So I have to do it again. I could take notes and try to get organized, but then I might lose the notes!! This could drive me crazy if I were to dwell on it, but fortunately some distraction usually comes along and I forget all about the problem.

Sandy

If I am printing and using papers that need to be soaked, I treat a few sheets then use them over the next several days. If I find I need paper and it's not already prepared, no problem. I soak it for 3 minutes, blot it, dry with a hair dryer, flatten for a minute in a cool mount press, coat and expose.
Preparing materials for carbon printing already takes a lot of time; when I print platinum I want a break from that

 

[pschwart]

Do you get good Dmax with Fabriano Artistico with palladium? I just ran a test of ten different papers with vandyke, including Artistico that was pre-soaked with 1.5% oxalic acid, and the Artistico had by far the lowest Dmax of all papers tested. It had a reflected reading of log 1.24 compared to 1.55 for Weston Parchment (no acid pre-soak), 1.53 for Lana (1.5% acid pre-soak), 1.51 for Masa (no acid pre-soak), 1.54 for Arches Aquarelle (acid pre-soak), 1.45 for Cot 320 (no acid pre-soak), 1.45 for Stonhenge Rising (no acid pre-soak), and 1.55 for Platine (no acid pre-soak). Left out a few more that gave DMax of less than 1.35.

BTW, has anyone tested a current batch of Stonhenge Rising with any of the iron processes? The figures I gave below were for old stock Stonhenge that is several years old.

Sandy

Sandy-
I just measured the test print I made on Artistico soaked for 3 minutes in 1.5% oxalic acid. The Dmax is 1.45 which is what I see for POP palladium on unsoaked papers. The print is actually a little underexposed so I might be able to get a bit more density. It looks like the presoaked Artistico needs a longer base exposure than what I use for untreated papers. Another reason to stick with papers that don't need soaking.

 

[sanking]

Sandy-
I just measured the test print I made on Artistico soaked for 3 minutes in 1.5% oxalic acid. The Dmax is 1.45 which is what I see for POP palladium on unsoaked papers. The print is actually a little underexposed so I might be able to get a bit more density. It looks like the presoaked Artistico needs a longer base exposure than what I use for untreated papers. Another reason to stick with papers that don't need soaking.

Phil,

The Fabriano Artistico works very differently with gold toned vandyke, at least for me. I got a Dmax of only 1.25 with the 1.5% oxalic acid soak, and a bit better at 1.35 with the citric acid presoak. But that is way below every other paper I have tried with both of the acids. I have not tried FA yet with palladium but may do so before the summer is over.

Curiously, COT 320 is a good, but great, paper for gold toned vandyke, as I get only about 1.45, with the acid pre-soak. That compares to well over 1.55 for many papers, and over 1.60 for a few. For palladium COT 320 and Platine have been by far the best papers I have used.

Sandy

 

[pschwart]

For palladium COT 320 and Platine have been by far the best papers I have used.

Sandy

This has been my experience, too, which is why I am reluctant to fool around with acid soaks for palladium. I will definitely soak the papers I have collected (Arches watercolor, Lanaquarelle, BFK, ...) that won't otherwise work, and I will definitely keep soaking in mind for other alt processes. I have a suspicion that giving Stonehenge an oxalic soak will eliminate the graininess I sometimes see with this paper. Switching to carbon later today, but I may test this first.
FYI: the Awagami Kozo/mulberry papers also make very fine Pt/Pd prints with no pretreatment and are not too difficult to coat.

 

[Loris Medici]

...
I am too old and forgetful to work like you. If I were to acidify a large number of sheets I would wind up storing some of them and then I would forget that I had acidified them. So I have to do it again. I could take notes and try to get organized, but then I might lose the notes!! This could drive me crazy if I were to dwell on it, but fortunately some distraction usually comes along and I forget all about the problem.
...

That was good, especially the last sentence! Being a business analyst & computer programmer for ~15 years, I'm also not too good in memory issues - especially short term memory - despite my relatively young age... Therefore, I treat/assume all paper as already acidified, since I "know" that I always work that way.

Regards,
Loris.

 

[Loris Medici]

If I am printing and using papers that need to be soaked, I treat a few sheets then use them over the next several days. If I find I need paper and it's not already prepared, no problem. I soak it for 3 minutes, blot it, dry with a hair dryer, flatten for a minute in a cool mount press, coat and expose.

I see, I'm pretty impatient when I want to print, therefore I can't stand to something extra on my way - very much like a hungry hypoglycemic. And I don't have a press, and here humidity is usually high (70% mean) in Istanbul. (= Paper doesn't want to dry fast...) Also being a multilayer gum printer, with time, I have developed an allergy to the process of waiting the paper to dry. (Or to force dry paper - it's a pretty noisy process!) Therefore, that procedure won't work for me...

Preparing materials for carbon printing already takes a lot of time; when I print platinum I want a break from that

I can definitely relate to that... That's why I somehow always find something else to do when it comes to carbon printing. (I'm comfortable right now, it's summer - definitely not a good time to pour tissue!)



Regards,
Loris.

 

[sanking]

This has been a very interesting thread and I need to thank Colin and Phil for their reports on Lanaquerelle pre-soaked in 1.5% oxalic acid. This is turning out to be a really beautiful paper for me with gold toned vandyke, with great Dmax, very smooth tones with virtually no grain, clears completely on development in water with a bit of citric acid added, and tones with gold very quickly, really blanc de blanc, and great water strength. I have been playing around with gold toned vandyke for several weeks trying to finish an article I am working on and this looks like my number one combination.

Sandy

 

[pschwart]

This has been a very interesting thread and I need to thank Colin and Phil for their reports on Lanaquerelle pre-soaked in 1.5% oxalic acid. This is turning out to be a really beautiful paper for me with gold toned vandyke, with great Dmax, very smooth tones with virtually no grain, clears completely on development in water with a bit of citric acid added, and tones with gold very quickly, really blanc de blanc, and great water strength. I have been playing around with gold toned vandyke for several weeks trying to finish an article I am working on and this looks like my number one combination.

Sandy

Oy vey! Now I need to start printing vandykes ...

 

[sanking]

Oy vey! Now I need to start printing vandykes ...

And I forgot to mention that Lanaquarelle is an inexpensive paper, at least compared to COT 320 and Platine.

Sandy

 

[PVia]

After I acidify a batch of paper and it's dry, I wrap it in a couple of sheets of artist newsprint just like a gift package and write a note on it: Acidified. Then I take from this batch as I print.

I do the same with large sheets headed for the gum process that have been soaked/preshrunk in water only. They go into a large makeshift folder marked "Preshrunk" and stored in my paper box or portfolio.

 

[PVia]

I finally got my Fabriano problem batch figured out last week and it's printing beautifully, no problem with the sizing after extended oxalic acid soaks.

I've read that Stan Klimek has found some problem batches that needed up to 8% solution for 15-30 minutes.

 

[pschwart]

I finally got my Fabriano problem batch figured out last week and it's printing beautifully, no problem with the sizing after extended oxalic acid soaks.

I've read that Stan Klimek has found some problem batches that needed up to 8% solution for 15-30 minutes.

I am a big fan of Artistico, it's my favorite watercolor paper for carbon, but that kind of treatment is my definition of "unsuitable paper." If time is money, it's cheaper to use Platine. Artistico and Platine are a close match.

 

[donbga]

I wrap it in a couple of sheets of artist newsprint

What is artist newsprint?

 

[PVia]

Just blank newsprint from an art supply store...some people think newsprint means torn from today's paper, hence the descriptor.

 

[PVia]

I am a big fan of Artistico, it's my favorite watercolor paper for carbon, but that kind of treatment is my definition of "unsuitable paper." If time is money, it's cheaper to use Platine. Artistico and Platine are a close match.

Platine is nice, too, and it's all a matter of what you personally like, how you like the paper to feel, but Platine is very expensive at almost twice that of Fabriano, so I think it balances out.

I also had a harder time getting Platine to work when I was first learning a few years ago and it also has/had a reputation for "bad" batches, so I just got hooked into Fabriano and love it for gum as well. I wouldn't mind trying Platine again now that I've had a few years of printing under my belt. But to tell the truth, if I'm happy with something I tend to learn it and stick with it.

My mother-in-law used to be a printmaker and over the past year has been bringing paper with her almost every visit, mostly Rives BFK but quite a bit of others. I've used that for gums when I want a looser look. I was also floored during her latest visit when she gave me a 24x30 tray!

Here's some recent tricolor gums on Fabriano:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/viapiano/4676426612/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/viapiano/4667167861/

... a tricolor on Rives BFK:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/viapiano/4691939849/

...and a gumover pt/pd on Fabriano:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/viapiano/4780926607/

 

[pschwart]

Platine is very expensive at almost twice that of Fabriano, so I think it balances out.

I also had a harder time getting Platine to work when I was first learning a few years ago and it also has/had a reputation for "bad" batches

Artistico is a true bargain at $3.10 USD for a 22x30. Platine is about $5.60 USD, but this is still less than most Japanese papers and considerably cheaper than COT-320 which is $12.75 from B&S. At the moment I only use Platine for platinum printing. I have read about Platine inconsistencies, but I have been using it for years and never experienced any problems.

 

[donbga]

I never had much luck with Lana, acidified or not. It's my favorite paper for carbon transfers and I really wanted to make it work for kallitypes.

I just thought I would mention that today I saw some exquisite gold toned Van Dyke Browns printed on Lanaquarelle. They had great DMAX and beautiful scale.

I might have to try some of that paper after all.

Don

 

[Colin Graham]

You should, it is excellent stuff. It's getting more difficult to find the 90lb version, but Stephen Kinsella still has it.

 

[Loris Medici]

FWIW, I tried to calibrate for Weston and gold-toned Vandyke. For me best results were possible with single coating, the dmax of double coated papers were same as single coated papers, but I have experienced mottling in tones. Single coated Weston gives wonderful / very smooth results but I'm sure dmax is not something even remotely near log 1.6! (Will have it measured this weekend, I anticipate it's something near log 1.35 and such...) Perhaps it's because of my AFC, (or other raw ingredients) I don't know...

Regards,
Loris.

 

[Colin Graham]

Onto a yet another paper . Trying some bfk yesterday, I noticed the paper both untreated and treated in 1.5% oxalic was much more difficult to clear than the sheets treated in 5% citric acid. The unexposed sensitizer hung on through 3 citric acid clearing baths on the untreated and oxalic treated paper while the citric acid treated paper cleared immediately in the developer. Anyone else observed citric acid treatment making papers easier to clear? Makes me wonder if certain acid treatments are more compatible with certain developers and clearing baths.

BTW Loris, the masa is interesting stuff! Thanks again for the recommendation. It's sort of odd not having to do a lot of prep to get a paper to work, I could get used to that.

*oops, forgot to mention I was printing kallitypes. No idea if that makes any difference, but I have no experience with pt/pd or vandykes.

 

[pschwart]

Onto a yet another paper . Trying some bfk yesterday, I noticed the paper both untreated and treated in 1.5% oxalic was much more difficult to clear than the sheets treated in 5% citric acid. The unexposed sensitizer hung on through 3 citric acid clearing baths on the untreated and oxalic treated paper while the citric acid treated paper cleared immediately in the developer. Anyone else observed citric acid treatment making papers easier to clear? Makes me wonder if certain acid treatments are more compatible with certain developers and clearing baths.

BTW Loris, the masa is interesting stuff! Thanks again for the recommendation. It's sort of odd not having to do a lot of prep to get a paper to work, I could get used to that.

I find that no papers clear completely in citric acid, even those that have not had an acid soak. BFK clears completely in HCA, Permawash, or EDTA+sodium sulfite, but I recall it takes a little longer than untreated papers.