Pushing HP5+ to 3200

StoneNYC · Nov 28, 2013

Hey everyone!

So all the literature from Ilford States that HP5+ can be pushed to 3200.

I'm wondering if it's like D3200 where you have to develop for the next stop up, IE shoot at 3200 and Dev for 6400...

Or if accurate times are listed and no additional time is needed?

The time in DD-X for HP5+ shot and pushed to 3200 is 20 minutes.

Additionally, with such a long agitation scheme, should I extend the agitations themselves, as in only agitating every two minutes for example instead of every minute? Or any other thing like that? I know that this is something that is safe if I were using Rodinal, but I'm not sure about DD-X and bromide drag after 50-60 seconds of sitting.

Thanks for any help.

And PLEASE I ask two things, 1 only speak up if you've actually done this, and not just something you've read somewhere. And 2. Please don't suggest some other film / dev combo, first, HP5+ is the only pushable to 3200 film that exists in 4x5 and the ONLY pushable to 3200 film available in 127 (heck it's the ONLY B&W film period that I can get new for 127) so I am only working with this film, I have no D3200 to use... And would PREFER to stick to DD-X since I have it on hand and it's excellent for pushing. I won't CONSIDER another liquid developer even if it's some kind of magic because my father is coming over today, and I will be developing this role with him as a father-son event, and DD-X is really the only developer I have good for pushing, I do have Rodinal but that's not such a good option with such a huge push, and D-76 isn't mixed and I don't want to have to try and mix 5 gallons or whatever the stupid huge amount is required per bag, so DD-X is it please...

Thanks guys, sorry for the "hard rules" but we all know this forum and trying to avoid all the "oh you should do this completely other thing that you're not asking about" thing that happens here LOL

PLUS the film is already shot, so, it's more about getting the times/agitation right...

Thanks!

removed account4 · Nov 28, 2013

why don't you get another roll of HP5+ expose it the same way and process it the way ILFORD recommends as a test roll.
( judging from other threads where you asked differences between films, had people do your tests &c for you
you discounted both their results and expertise because it wasn't what you were looking for. )

i have hp5+ and i have pushed it to 3200 and i have results from that work, but it doesn't involve
127 format, or the developers you suggest you will work with. sprint has a film developer that is readily available, and works
very well with ilford films, and their website gives extremely accurate instructions on how to push process to 3200 ...

StoneNYC · Nov 28, 2013

Michael R 1974 said:
I will only address the agitation question:

1) Do not worry about bromide drag with agitation intervals of 1 minute. Ilford's normal suggested agitation procedure is every 50 seconds anyway, pushing or not. I have used 2 and 3 minute intervals with DD-X without any problems, though I have not used it with HP5.

2) Extending the agitation interval to 2 minutes with DD-X 1+4 will do pretty much nothing except necessitate a longer development time (testing required). Stick with 1 minute intervals.

Thanks, good info, noted, so stick to 1 minute intervals, got it.

StoneNYC · Nov 28, 2013

jnanian said:
why don't you get another roll of HP5+ expose it the same way and process it the way ILFORD recommends as a test roll.
( judging from other threads where you asked differences between films, had people do your tests &c for you
you discounted both their results and expertise because it wasn't what you were looking for. )

i have hp5+ and i have pushed it to 3200 and i have results from that work, but it doesn't involve
127 format, or the developers you suggest you will work with. sprint has a film developer that is readily available, and works
very well with ilford films, and their website gives extremely accurate instructions on how to push process to 3200 ...

Thanks John, I've never discounted tests with the materials I have, only other stuff, and it's more that I don't want to go buying something new.

The sprint standard dev only lists pushing to 800 on the massive dev chart. So I was going to ask if the times matched but that won't work since they aren't listed.

I haven't tested it myself (which is a valuable suggestion) mostly because DD-X is expensive and also I don't have time to spend 6 hours just testing (that's how long from start to finish it takes me between setup, mixing, dev, hanging, drying, cleanup, scanning) remember I live at a house and work in my sink so everything has to be cleaned up after and hand dried and put away, nothing can be left drying, that's a lot of time for a test.

I don't want others to DO a test, I want to know if someone has already done it, what the results were, that's all.

Thanks.

Thomas Bertilsson · Nov 28, 2013

Stone,

I have shot HP5+ at 3200 a couple of times, and only found out what I already knew, that the developing times listed or produced by other photographers bear little resemblance on my own situation, and ended up with negatives that were 'flat' in the tones that were actually captured by the -3 stop exposure.

But that was pertaining to how I print and work, so it may end up being untrue for you, with your camera, water supply, etc. If you can't run a test before you develop the exposed roll, then it is going to be a crap shoot, and you may get lucky. Or not.
Next roll was fine because I adjusted developing time and gave 30% more developing time, and I get better mid tone and highlight contrast without blocking up any tones. I can't remember specifically which developer it was that I used, because it was an experiment, and I lost the notes when I moved out of my old house. It would have been Xtol, Sprint, or DD-X, but I can't be sure.

removed account4 · Nov 28, 2013

StoneNYC said:
The sprint standard dev only lists pushing to 800 on the massive dev chart. So I was going to ask if the times matched but that won't work since they aren't listed.
I don't want others to DO a test, I want to know if someone has already done it, what the results were, that's all.

Thanks.

stone

if you go to the sprint site you will find everything you need, i wouldn't use or rely on the massive development chart
for anything, while it may give tidbits of info it very well be riddled with mistakes and is obviously incomplete ...

http://sprintsystems.com/time-charts/

you will see, for every stop over / under exposed work off of their chart accordingly.
out of habit i always over process by a little bit and sprint wont' block up your highlights ..
the chart suggests instead of developing it for 10mins you increase your time to about 23mins.
results with 3200 film were better than 400 pushed, because, well, it is made to be shot at that iso and not lose details,

you discounted sprint developer before because you said it was
"too boring" or "plain vanilla" but the truth of the matter is, it works and works well ..
( that is why schools have used their system for 30+ years )

and yes, it seems you are relying on other people to do your tests for you, to feed you information, call it what you want.
the reality is what tom just said, it works for them and most likely will not give you anything even
remotely similar to what your results will be.

if it is hp5+ you want to work with, get a lot of it, shoot it in a a variety of situations, and get 1 developer and
process it. i would seriously not waste energy with a variety of different developers, get one, that isn't expensive,
buy a lot of it and use it. but i forgot it is tmy 2 or is it tri x, 50 year old VP or 5222 you are using ?
sounds like a mess LOL HAHAHA

good luck with your tests
john

StoneNYC · Nov 28, 2013

Thomas Bertilsson said:
Stone,

I have shot HP5+ at 3200 a couple of times, and only found out what I already knew, that the developing times listed or produced by other photographers bear little resemblance on my own situation, and ended up with negatives that were 'flat' in the tones that were actually captured by the -3 stop exposure.

But that was pertaining to how I print and work, so it may end up being untrue for you, with your camera, water supply, etc. If you can't run a test before you develop the exposed roll, then it is going to be a crap shoot, and you may get lucky. Or not.
Next roll was fine because I adjusted developing time and gave 30% more developing time, and I get better mid tone and highlight contrast without blocking up any tones. I can't remember specifically which developer it was that I used, because it was an experiment, and I lost the notes when I moved out of my old house. It would have been Xtol, Sprint, or DD-X, but I can't be sure.

Thank you, I mainly am looking for the info, because I am going to be developing a roll together with my father on Thanksgiving today, and so I would like to be able to have decent results, I'm okay if the negative is flat, so long as it has detail and information and isn't completely lacking detail or information.

Thank you for giving me some information, perhaps maybe I'll increase by half of yours that would be 15%, therefore having a better chance at something in between that may give me something fairly usable, thanks.

StoneNYC · Nov 28, 2013

jnanian said:
stone

i if you go to the sprint site you will find everything you need, i wouldn't use or rely on the massive development chart
for anything, while it may give tidbits of info it very well be riddled with mistakes and is obviously incomplete ...

http://sprintsystems.com/time-charts/

you will see, for every stop over / under exposed
you work off of their chart accordingly. out of habit i always over process by a little bit and sprint
wont' block up your highlights ..

you discounted sprint developer before because you said it was
"too boring" or too "plain vanilla" and the truth of the matter is, it works and works well ..

and yes, it seems you are relying on other people to do your tests for you, to feed you information
but the reality is what tom just said, it works for them and most likely will not give you anything even
remotely similar to what your results will be.

good luck with your tests
john

Thanks John, however I can't exactly go to picked up a bottle of Sprint today, and since I'm developing this film with my father today I really need to be able to use a developer that is already in the house, that's why I said that I would prefer if I got detailed information from those using DD-X.

I made an error in suggesting that I was at all interested in hearing about other developers at this time, I should've specified that I'm interested in hearing about information of other developers, however as it pertains to this particular day, I only have DD-X to work off of.

MaximusM3 · Nov 28, 2013

StoneNYC said:
Thank you, I mainly am looking for the info, because I am going to be developing a roll together with my father on Thanksgiving today, and so I would like to be able to have decent results, I'm okay if the negative is flat, so long as it has detail and information and isn't completely lacking detail or information.

Thank you for giving me some information, perhaps maybe I'll increase by half of yours that would be 15%, therefore having a better chance at something in between that may give me something fairly usable, thanks.

Well, even using DDX, you're under-exposing it three stops, which means more grain and less resolution. "Pushing" means nothing. That's a 400iso emulsion at best and you can't change it. All you'd be doing is over developing to get decent contrast (which also means little since you are scanning). Others may have tried it, but it doesn't matter. If you can't test, you'll have to wing it and find out for yourself.

markbarendt · Nov 28, 2013

StoneNYC said:
Thanks, good info, noted, so stick to 1 minute intervals, got it.

Yep, when in doubt follow Ilford's instruction.

MattKing · Nov 28, 2013

StoneNYC said:
Hey everyone!

So all the literature from Ilford States that HP5+ can be pushed to 3200.

I'm wondering if it's like D3200 where you have to develop for the next stop up, IE shoot at 3200 and Dev for 6400...

Delta 3200 has an ISO speed rating of 1000, but is designed to give lower than normal contrast when exposed at that ISO speed and developed normally. It's contrast doesn't really build to "normal" unless you increase development.

Ilford's recommendation is that if you underexpose it by 2/3 of a stop (at an EI of 1600) you will get appropriate contrast if you develop it for X minutes at 20C. They have similar recommendations for underexposure by 1 2/3 of a stop (at an EI of 3200) and further additional development.

Many people prefer the resulting contrast if it is developed longer than Ilford's recommendation for the EI used.

In comparison ....

HP5+ has an ISO speed of 400 and is designed to give normal contrast when exposed at that ISO speed and developed normally. So recommendations for under-exposure and over-development are more likely to be made with an eye to minimizing increase in contrast, rather than enhancing it.

StoneNYC · Nov 28, 2013

MattKing said:
Delta 3200 has an ISO speed rating of 1000, but is designed to give lower than normal contrast when exposed at that ISO speed and developed normally. It's contrast doesn't really build to "normal" unless you increase development.

Ilford's recommendation is that if you underexpose it by 2/3 of a stop (at an EI of 1600) you will get appropriate contrast if you develop it for X minutes at 20C. They have similar recommendations for underexposure by 1 2/3 of a stop (at an EI of 3200) and further additional development.

Many people prefer the resulting contrast if it is developed longer than Ilford's recommendation for the EI used.

In comparison ....

HP5+ has an ISO speed of 400 and is designed to give normal contrast when exposed at that ISO speed and developed normally. So recommendations for under-exposure and over-development are more likely to be made with an eye to minimizing increase in contrast, rather than enhancing it.

I see, so would throwing in some technidol into the DD-X mix help to lower the contrast issue?

I know this probably sounds dumb, but figure I would throw it out there.

removed account4 · Nov 28, 2013

StoneNYC said:
Thanks John, however I can't exactly go to picked up a bottle of Sprint today, and since I'm developing this film with my father today I really need to be able to use a developer that is already in the house, that's why I said that I would prefer if I got detailed information from those using DD-X.

I made an error in suggesting that I was at all interested in hearing about other developers at this time, I should've specified that I'm interested in hearing about information of other developers, however as it pertains to this particular day, I only have DD-X to work off of.

its like peeling an onion !
each post in a thread we get yet another detail
that was left out of the original post ..

lol it is a good thing you didn't follow the footsteps of your ancestors
becoming an engineer, you would get partway through the solution to a problem and remember you
you asked the wrong questions of your clients ...

since you can't pick up a bottle of sprint today, you should pick one up tomorrow or another day
and if you can't pick one up locally, they have MAIL ORDER. their developers + fixer &c work with every film and paper on the planet.
simple to use and when the stop bath indicates it is time to mix new everything ( that is the system ) ...

much easier to actually learn something when you have consistency, or at least ONE THING consistent ( the same developer ) ...

StoneNYC · Nov 28, 2013

jnanian said:
its like peeling an onion !
each post in a thread we get yet another detail
that was left out of the original post ..

lol it is a good thing you didn't follow the footsteps of your ancestors
becoming an engineer, you would get partway through the solution to a problem and remember you
you asked the wrong questions of your clients ...

since you can't pick up a bottle of sprint today, you should pick one up tomorrow or another day
and if you can't pick one up locally, they have MAIL ORDER. their developers + fixer &c work with every film and paper on the planet.
simple to use and when the stop bath indicates it is time to mix new everything ( that is the system ) ...

much easier to actually learn something when you have consistency, or at least ONE THING consistent ( the same developer ) ...

John, I know you're trying to be helpful, but you don't listen at all... I don't want your advice on this because it's not used DD-X to push HP5+ so thank you for trying to help, but you are not helping.

Be well and Happy Thanksgiving.

eddie · Nov 28, 2013

StoneNYC said:
I see, so would throwing in some technidol into the DD-X mix help to lower the contrast issue?

I know this probably sounds dumb, but figure I would throw it out there.

Yes, and an 8 oz. can of V-8.

markbarendt · Nov 28, 2013

StoneNYC said:
I see, so would throwing in some technidol into the DD-X mix help to lower the contrast issue?

I know this probably sounds dumb, but figure I would throw it out there.

Stone, there is no magic bullet we can offer you here. Just grab your Dad and get started, the shots will turn out fine.

StoneNYC · Nov 28, 2013

markbarendt said:
Stone, there is no magic bullet we can offer you here. Just grab your Dad and get started, the shots will turn out fine.

Fine is relative... I did this when I pushed 400TX to 1600 once in ilfsol 3 ... which supposedly it COULD do, but the images are all very dark, so I just wanted to avoid that issue, I know DD-X and Ilfsol 3 are different developers, and of course HP5+ is different than 400TX (which pushes better than TX400...) I still wanted to get a little info before I did it...

Anyway I'm sure it will be fine, we shall see...

Nige · Nov 28, 2013

what time is it? Is Thanksgiving my today or my tomorrow? Won't be home for about 3 hours.

I have done this once... ran out of D3200 (35mm) and since I was getting 1/30 @ f2.8 trying to shoot kick boxing decided HP5 @ 400 wasn't going to cut the mustard so decided to expose @ 3200. I'm pretty sure I processed both in DD-X. From memory... the HP5 came out ok. Would need to check my records for development times and eye ball negs to see if memory equates reality (it may not!)

These two pics were from the night... not sure what combo's (film/developer) they were.. would need to check!

MattKing · Nov 28, 2013

StoneNYC said:
I see, so would throwing in some technidol into the DD-X mix help to lower the contrast issue?

I know this probably sounds dumb, but figure I would throw it out there.

Who knows.

It would be just as likely to leave you with blank film though.

Unless you are mixing developers from constituent chemical parts, and understand the role of each of those parts, I wouldn't suggest "throwing" anything in to anything.

munz6869 · Nov 28, 2013

I'd be keen to see what results anyone would get from this - a useful 3200 ISO film would make my Graphcheck Sequence camera 'useful' again... (built for polaroid 3200ISO film, but takes a 5x4" film holder too!)

Marc!

removed account4 · Nov 28, 2013

eddie said:
Yes, and an 8 oz. can of V-8.

eddie

you are no help
stone is looking for magic in a developer he has had little experience with

he would rather ask for advice, and ignore it, then ask for additional advice, ignore it ..
until he gets the answer/s he is looking for ... much like someone repairing a 1800cc vw bug who needs to
replace the coil, but he only has points and a rotor, so he calls 30 mechanics, and car parts stores until he gets one that says ... take the dist cap off remove the rotor and points and replace them , and dont forget to measure the gap with the feeler gauge ... and then when the car still doesnt start he'll blame the guy that didnt tell him to replace the coil ...

good luck with the snipe hunt !

StoneNYC · Nov 28, 2013

MattKing said:
Who knows.

It would be just as likely to leave you with blank film though.

Unless you are mixing developers from constituent chemical parts, and understand the role of each of those parts, I wouldn't suggest "throwing" anything in to anything.

So that time I mixed Rodinal and HC-110 just for the heck of it to see if I'd get sharper negs ... probably shouldn't do that? LOL

BTW they came out fine, I didn't notice any increase in finer grain or sharpness however. lol

StoneNYC · Nov 28, 2013

jnanian said:
eddie

you are no help
stone is looking for magic in a developer he has had little experience with

he would rather ask for advice, and ignore it, then ask for additional advice, ignore it ..
until he gets the answer/s he is looking for ... much like someone repairing a 1800cc vw bug who needs to
replace the coil, but he only has points and a rotor, so he calls 30 mechanics, and car parts stores until he gets one that says ... take the dist cap off remove the rotor and points and replace them , and dont forget to measure the gap with the feeler gauge ... and then when the car still doesnt start he'll blame the guy that didnt tell him to replace the coil ...

good luck with the snipe hunt !

Hah!

PS I've had plenty of experience with DD-X and NONE with sprint ... so... for the guy who's always like "stick to one or two developers" and I stick to Rodinal and DD-X for almost everything I shoot that's important... and then I always have a 3rd one for "experimentation" and the last was HC-110 ... next up is D-76, following that will be DK-50 and finally Polydol .... BUT my only two developers that I use for anything important and to stay CONSISTENT are Rodinal and DD-X ... which is what everyone tells me to do... stay consistent... and then you complain when I say no to a NEW developer... *shakes head* you're silly... I use Rodinal for normal stuff, and DD-X for pushing ... I've just (With the exception of the first month or two of developing by hand) only pushed D3200 which I have dialed in just fine ... but this is new... so I'm trying to just get info before I go in completely blind...

Hexavalent · Nov 28, 2013

Microphen dev can push HP5 to 6400 with reasonable results. Expect some grain

StoneNYC · Nov 28, 2013

I guess what I was looking for is too logical for most, or they haven't used the Dev/film combo which is fine...

I was looking for a simple answer like ...

"I've used HP5+ at EI 3200, and I dev'd it in DD-X and pushed to 3200 at 20 minutes and the negs were a little under exposed/thin/whatever your term is, so the next time I developed for 22 minutes and it came out much better, so now I use 22 minutes with DD-X shot at EI 3200 ... "

I mean, that's how I would answer someone who asks this kind of question ... I would not tell them (you should use something else because blah blah.)

I WOULD say .. "I haven't used DD-X before, but I've done this with Sprint at X Dilution with Y time and gotten good negs, if you can't find an answer for DD-X, at least you have this time/dilution combo as a backup"

but just saying "oh you should use sprint ... because I use sprint and I like it and so you should too" which is how you come across John, is not helpful...

Besides, DD-X is a VERY WELL KNOWN developer that is very good at pushing films while keeping a decent grain, which is why I use it... so it's not like I'm trying to use Rodinal at 1:100 stand and push the film... so give me a little credit here... I'm doing the right thing ... you just want to always tell me to do something new rather than do what I'm already in the process of doing ....

Since you like car examples ... I come in and say, hey I want to change my oil and the car manual recommends I use Mobile 1 oil, but I've heard with these cars that you should add an extra quart when you change the filter because it absorbs a lot of the oil. and the mechanics response is ... oh you shouldn't use mobile one, and you shouldn't use that oil filter, instead you should use Shell oil and get this other size filter and you should change the whole oil distribution system because that's what I did and now my car is awesome!..... when all I asked is if I should add a little extra oil or not.... SEE where it can kind of be frustrating... lol

Pushing HP5+ to 3200

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