Proposed UK law to restrict roadside camping

[Cholentpot]

Salt and vinegar of coarse , what else ? ( sea salt for preference )
Although I occasionally go for a good going over of curry sauce on them .

What do you put on yours ?

Ketchup. What else?

Salt, of course. And. Either ketchup or catsup.

an alternative is smothered with chili, onion, and ‘Mercian cheese… garnished with a dill pickle slice.

Weird people from Holland use mayo. Must be the wooden Klompen

 

[Arthurwg]

One of my favorite Youtube photographers, Tom Heaton, camps in his van all over the UK to get his landscapes.

 

[Arthurwg]

I expect that your perceptions of the law in Germany are influenced by the relative amount of available space you have in New Mexico.
More importantly, when it comes to the subject of this thread, is the question of what effect the new law might have on freedoms that have been enjoyed in the UK for many generations - probably longer than the USA has been in existence.
It may be that the new law won't withstand common law protections. Or perhaps it will - common law protections work in different ways than the US or Canadian versions.

You may be right about New Mexico, which has lot's of open space and federal lands that are open to all. But I am disturbed by ever increasing regimentation and laws. that limit personal freedom. I do think we and others should have the right to sleep in our RVs, not everywhere perhaps but in lots of places. The alternative is paying for motels, hotels or commercial campgrounds. And the ban on open camping seems somehow typically Germanic. Hope this is not too political.

 

[MattKing]

To try to bring this back at least a little bit toward photography, you might recall the furor when Andreas Gursky's photographic work "Rhein II" sold for a huge amount of money.
You will recall, it is an amazingly boring view - here is a thumbnail:



People complained that there was nothing there, so why the huge price.
And of course, that was at least part of the point, because the only way to show nothing on the banks of the Rhein is to digitally manipulate a photograph to remove everything beside the Rhein - otherwise the river bank is just too crowded with stuff. Germany is a relatively very crowded place, and the rules there reflect that.

If you are going to consider stuff like this, you really need to understand the environment and the context.

The legislation that the OP is concerned about needs to be considered in relation to the rules and practices and very well entrenched freedoms that exist in those parts of the UK that it will affect. It is very difficult to apply norms and rules and expectations from elsewhere. In particular places like the US, where freedoms are extended so unequally.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

The Government are trying to bring in a new law to curtail peoples freedom to travel around their own country .
Like many others I have a campervan and like to travel around the country .

Being a photographer I travel to many a remote location and will find a quiet layby or remote carpark to park up in overnight where overnight parking is allowed .
I'm completely self contained in my campervan and always leave a place as I found it ( or even tidier )
If this law came in I could be sent to prison , fined and my van destroyed , just for parking up overnight !
In principle the law does have some merit for the purpose intended , but is badly written , victimising people going about their lawful business .

The idea behind introducing the law is to to make it harder for such as road protesters to set up camp on private land to prevent work going ahead , and so on .
But it will effect thousands of people who live in their vans permanently or for holidays . This doesn't jest effect gypsies invading peoples private land leaving rubbish and filth behind until the police move them on , but people that just travel around in a respectful manner .

For more information , see here ; https://www.euronews.com/travel/202...on-be-criminalised-for-wild-camping-in-the-uk

For those that agree that that people should be allowed to go about doing what they enjoy , or the lifestyle they choose that has no detrimental effect on others , or just to be allowed to live in a free country , please sign the petition below to get the proposed law amended ; https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/583903

If not it's the thin edge of the wedge . What will the Government make illegal next ?
After a year and a half of lockdowns it seems the Government have got a taste for running a Police state and might be getting ready to start a new fascist regime !

Value your freedom , stand-up for your rights , don't let them be eroded away .
Or soon you'll have neither ...

the law has another befit:More people from mainland Europe will travel to France instead of the UK, which is overrated photographically anyway.

 

[perkeleellinen]

My family could never afford overnight stays when I was growing up so we'd always sleep in the car - memories of freezing nights in the mountains.

I already see many 'no overnight camping' signs in laybys in tourist hot spots. Difficult law to enforce for the individual driving a camper van who becomes sleepy and cannot continue driving so pulls over for the night rather than falling asleep at the wheel.

 

[Bikerider]

Are you no longer allowed to camp in designated campsites? I can understand not allowing camping by the side of the road. If you tried camping on my private property, I’d run you off. Neither of the links you provided link to the text of the law so I don’t know what it says. I think the petition is just to eliminate forfeiting the vehicle as a penalty, at least that is what I initially saw. I can’t get back into the petition because I live in the US.

The law as it is at present has not been finalised and passed through the Parliamentary process, and what some people are claiming is largely conjecture, supposition, rumour and a degree of dissent. They are reading between the lines where there is little fact to be seen. Having said that, having seen the aftermath of people parking and camping where they are not allowed, can result in the desecration of the area with litter and rubbish. Not to say of the place being used as a public toilet.

In a large number of local authorities where there are many areas to pull off the road which have signs there already, prohibiting overnight parking anyway.

 

[awty]

I notice your in Australia , so to put it in context , if you went travelling around your country in the outback for eg , in a campervan / motorhome / RV etc , you get to the end of the day and you find somewhere out of the way to park up overnight to sleep .
Then moving on after breakfast the following morning .
That's wild camping .


It's an alternative to staying on an official camp site of trailer park .

It's the same as if you went back packing , you walk for a day , set up camp for the night , and move on the next morning .
leaving the area as you found it .
That's also wild camping .

Please note I am referring to parking up somewhere in the middle of nowhere and not in a village , or on someone's lawn or drive !

Ok. That would be illegal here as well. Just ask Mick from Wolf Creek.
There are plenty of legal options. Good luck with standing up to your rights.

 

[reddesert]

It's not really possible to directly compare wild camping (or backcountry camping for that matter) between the US (or Canada) vs Europe. In the US, vast amounts of the land are owned or overseen by federal and state governments, and those often have very little restriction on camping overnight. In much of the Western US, you can pull off on Federal BLM or National Forest land and camp as long as you aren't too close to occupied places or environmentally/culturally sensitive areas (and those are frequently signed No Camping, so when it's not signed you're often ok). In Europe, things are completely different because the population density is so much higher and there have been centuries of land ownership claims, so there's much less land that belongs to no particular person, isn't in someone's front yard. and allows free for all camping.

On the other hand, many European countries have sort of freedom-to-roam easements for hiking that allow established walking routes to cross private land. I've hiked on official trails following blazes and signs that took me right through someone's front yard while they were hanging up the laundry and chatting with the neighbors. In the US, that would get you a trespassing citation and maybe a threat of physical harm. So there's more than one kind of freedom.

 

[Don_ih]

Seems like another law to punish people for being poor. According to this, in 2017, 12000 people were sleeping in vehicles or tents in the UK. That situation is probably worse, now, with the number of lower-income people who lost their jobs during the pandemic. (I guess that's not the accepted description - but it's acceptable to arrest and seize the property of protesters?)
I doubt it will ever be enforced on someone in a well-maintained camper-van on the side of a remote road. If a tent will fix the problem, erect a small, cheap pop-up tent beside the van before you go to sleep - in the van.

 

[Craig75]

I.live in a national park and the land isn't public land.

It's owned by dukes, Lords, farmers, and the very wealthy. Access to it is governed by parks authoritirs and government laws but you cannot just walk where ever you like in a national park.

There is a common land too. My house is surrounded on 3 sides by common land but that does not mean you can sleep on it. It's common grazing land for different farms.

 

[neilt3]

I.live in a national park and the land isn't public land.

It's owned by dukes, Lords, farmers, and the very wealthy. Access to it is governed by parks authoritirs and government laws but you cannot just walk where ever you like in a national park.

There is a common land too. My house is surrounded on 3 sides by common land but that does not mean you can sleep on it. It's common grazing land for different farms.

A layby at the side of the road intended for parking on is part of the highway .
Not privately own by a lord or a farmer .
At some point the land that it and the road is built on would have been their land , but was bought off them and they have no control over it .
A field next to it is privately owned by someone , and to park up on that without permission would be trespass .
But that isn't what's being discussed here .
It's areas off the main carriageways of the highway that are currently fine to park up on overnight .

Also the rules regarding the use of common land can vary .
A campervan parked on the carpark that is part of the common is fine unless their is signage stipulating no overnight parking , or campervan's etc .

 

[Cholentpot]

To try to bring this back at least a little bit toward photography, you might recall the furor when Andreas Gursky's photographic work "Rhein II" sold for a huge amount of money.
You will recall, it is an amazingly boring view - here is a thumbnail:

View attachment 280015

People complained that there was nothing there, so why the huge price.
And of course, that was at least part of the point, because the only way to show nothing on the banks of the Rhein is to digitally manipulate a photograph to remove everything beside the Rhein - otherwise the river bank is just too crowded with stuff. Germany is a relatively very crowded place, and the rules there reflect that.

If you are going to consider stuff like this, you really need to understand the environment and the context.

The legislation that the OP is concerned about needs to be considered in relation to the rules and practices and very well entrenched freedoms that exist in those parts of the UK that it will affect. It is very difficult to apply norms and rules and expectations from elsewhere. In particular places like the US, where freedoms are extended so unequally.

Sorry nitpick Matt, what do you mean by unequally extended freedoms? State to State? Municipality to municipality? I'd agree that laws are all over the place in the US. From one town to the next or over a State line things change. I can do 70mph, then gotta take it down to 55, back to 60, then no posted limit and then back to 50 for no reason other than I passed into a new state or county.

 

[Craig75]

A layby at the side of the road intended for parking on is part of the highway .
Not privately own by a lord or a farmer .
At some point the land that it and the road is built on would have been their land , but was bought off them and they have no control over it .
A field next to it is privately owned by someone , and to park up on that without permission would be trespass .
But that isn't what's being discussed here .
It's areas off the main carriageways of the highway that are currently fine to park up on overnight .

Also the rules regarding the use of common land can vary .
A campervan parked on the carpark that is part of the common is fine unless their is signage stipulating no overnight parking , or campervan's etc .

This was addressed to "
The law will prevent me going about my current lawful business on public land and the highway" and to try and address some misunderstandings (not you yourself) that people might have about what constitutes a national park for example as the phrase is very misleading imo

The land outside of road is not public land. Its private land with an enforced right to roam through designated footpaths across that land.

The laybys etc are controlled by the parks authority (i believe) They designate whether its an overnight stop or not.

I have certainly seen one photographer removed from public highway in a park by the police at the behest of a member of the nobility which I most certainly did not agree with though.

 

[guangong]

Is the intent of a layby to provide a space for campers, or to provide a safe place for cars or drivers that are under stress.
We often have wide shoulders on roads, but not used for camping.

 

[MattKing]

what do you mean by unequally extended freedoms? State to State?

Yep
In particular, voting.

 

[halfaman]

On the other hand, many European countries have sort of freedom-to-roam easements for hiking that allow established walking routes to cross private land. I've hiked on official trails following blazes and signs that took me right through someone's front yard while they were hanging up the laundry and chatting with the neighbors. In the US, that would get you a trespassing citation and maybe a threat of physical harm. So there's more than one kind of freedom.

In Spain it is a civil right and it allows to cross through a private property to access another one when there is no public road available. Some of those "passages" are part of hiking routes as you mentioned.

 

[Cholentpot]

Yep
In particular, voting.

Not gonna touch that can of worms.

However, voting is decentralized by design. It's up to the states to decide how to proceed with elections. To link back to the original intent of this thread, in the USA we have codified freedom of movement. If you don't like the laws in AZ, you can move to OH. It may take effort, time and money but the government isn't stopping you.

The weather is nicer in AZ though.

 

[BrianShaw]

Yep
In particular, voting.

Troll LOL

 

[removed account4]

If you don't like the laws in AZ, you can move to OH. It may take effort, time and money but the government isn't stopping you.

there are lots of things that stop people from moving from state to state, like skin tone.

 

[MattKing]

I hereby promise to punish myself for straying too far into the political.
However, it is relevant to my earlier point - that one needs to understand the existing context in order to understand the issue in this thread. And local differences are extraordinarily important.

 

[wiltw]

Freedoms there counteract restrictions, when you compare policies in different places. Going for a hike across private open space is common abroad, but not in USA.

We both have issues with folks living in vans and motorhomes on a permanent basis, not merely travelling about on holiday. Here in US, there are large encampments of such vehicles, and the local law enforcement has problems with them parked along the side of the public roadways like formal caravans.
https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/09...t-steps-to-deal-with-rv-dwellers-and-parking/
https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-google-mountain-view-rv-living-20190522-story.html
The linked article states that in the UK, “There are upwards of 60,000 people living off-grid in mobile homes of various sorts in the UK. Some are taking a break from their normal life, while others live this way permanently." So it is rather understandable the motivations behind the UK proposal, although it is perhaps overly restrictive as currently proposed...
Maybe it needs to be modified, like applying for a permit to stay in a vehicle during a specifically declared holiday period.
Here in US, it is not uncommon to need a Campfire Permits are required for the use of campfires, charcoal fires or portable gas stoves outside designated recreation sites; or Wilderness Permits to stay overnight within a National Park.

Per the provided link, "Who is affected?" ..."paddle boarding without license"
You need a license, to paddle board? Do you also need to have paddle boarding insurance?

 

[Vaughn]

I see the proposed rules as a possible means to control the van-lifers and the homeless (and/or home-free). Here in the States we have a habit of making the homeless 'illegal' and taking their freedoms from them.

 

[PerTulip]

You may be right about New Mexico, which has lot's of open space and federal lands that are open to all. But I am disturbed by ever increasing regimentation and laws. that limit personal freedom. I do think we and others should have the right to sleep in our RVs, not everywhere perhaps but in lots of places. The alternative is paying for motels, hotels or commercial campgrounds. And the ban on open camping seems somehow typically Germanic. Hope this is not too political.

Without getting into politics....

If you look at some numbers:

Size Germany: 357.581 km2
Size New Mexico: 314.915 km2

Population Germany: 83 Million
Population New Mexico: 2.1 Million

Population density Germany: 233 inhabitants per square kilometer
Population density New Mexico: 6.6 inhabitants per square kilometer

And BTW, the population density of the UK is 270 inhabitants per square kilometers.

It's very hard to find any land in Germany which "nobody cares about" and you are not within walking or 5min driving distance of the next person. So, if you set up your tent along the road, in 99% of the cases it will be either private land, restricted (national park) land or whatever. So, it's the result of high population densities. An increase in tourism (pre- and hopefully post-Corona) also made restrictions necessary in several countries and/or destinations. Iceland being an example. Yellowstone being an example in the US, where camping had to be restricted (3 million visitors per year) to designated areas and/or permits.

Now, I have no idea on the current camping rules in NM....but I'd love to visit.

 

[faberryman]

As I understand it, it is not a paddle board license, it is a waterways license and is required for stand up paddle boards, canoes, kayaks, and boats of all kinds. A license is not required for all waterways.

You also might want to look into a floating waterproof case for your camera.