Project: collecting Ica serial numbers for better data (Pre-Zeiss-Ikon)

ZenziFriend · Feb 20, 2016

Hello,

if found no valid Information about Ica Serial numbers. It only said that with the Ica Merger 1909 they started the numbering System which was later used after the 1926 Merger by Zeiss Ikon.

I have a Ica camera with original lens, which can be dated by the lens to 1913/14 and Serial No. Cxxxxx

As most Ica Cameras were sold with (often Zeiss) lens and (often compur) shutter, the camera, if original, can be dated by the existing lists of Compur Numbers and Zeiss Jena lens numbers...

So if you own a Ica, reagardles what model, I want to invite you to post here:
-type, if known, Serial Number of the Body (usually where the plate back is mounted), Type and Serial No of the lens, Serial number of the shutter (the compur Serial No is not in the front, the patent number, but the small number on the left side!)

I would be very happy to get some dated Serial numbers collected here...

Or if someone has more valid info of the Ica numbering System...

ZenziFriend · Feb 20, 2016

Ica Ideal 6x9, Serial "H24xxx", Tessar and Compur Serial No both are 1918

The first Contax in Spring 1932 started with No U 20xxx btw.

ZenziFriend · Feb 20, 2016

very valuable would be cameras that have both signs of ICA and Zeiss Ikon, from the merger year 1926.

I have such a Ernemann Heag, with ZI Label, but still a ernemann number... So this camera does not help here...

Peltigera · Feb 20, 2016

Simon Worsley over at the Zeiss Ikon Camera Group (ZICG) has been collecting these numbers for some years and can offer fairly accurate dates for most ICA and ZI cameras.
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ZICG/conversations/messages

ZenziFriend · Feb 20, 2016

Peltigera said:
Simon Worsley over at the Zeiss Ikon Camera Group (ZICG) has been collecting these numbers for some years and can offer fairly accurate dates for most ICA and ZI cameras.
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ZICG/conversations/messages

thanks... Hope the link ist still existing. It s only acessible with yahoo account...

Anatoly · Sep 17, 2016

1. Icar 180: body D96.., lens Zeiss Icar 209585 (~1913)
2. Bebe: body E28.., lens Zeiss Tessar 216088 (~1913)

ZenziFriend · Oct 30, 2016

one finding (data on ebay sale)

k41828 ica juwel 9x12 tessar 165 No 281432 lens 1914/15 (list says 282xxx is 1915)

Andy38 · Dec 12, 2016

Hello,

Here are some ICA numbers, from earlier to later cameras :

_ Cupido (without number of type, but it's a 6x9 format) s/n 87xxx (no letter, maybe a renamed Huttig, body is named ICA) ; lens Tessar Carl Zeiss Jena 112 mm f6,3 s/n 96xxx (~1905-1908) ; shutter Compound s/n 96xxx
_ Reicka (folding 10x15, no number of type) s/n 81xxxA (~1909) and, smaller, E2 (maybe a factory modification) Tessar CZJ 16,5cm f6,3 s/n 385xxx (~1920 I think it was changed) Compound without s/n ; it strongly looks like Wuensche foldings, but has ICA named body.
_ Favorit (square folding 10x15, no number of type) s/n A50xxx (1911, patent date inside body), Tessar CZJ 16,5cm f6,3 s/n 140xxx (~1909), Compound s/n 90xxx.
_ Reicka (folding 10x15 different from the above, no number of type) s/n A54xxx (~1911), lens ICA Doppel-Anastigmat Lloyd 165mm f6,8 s/n 143xxx, Huttig Compound without s/n.
_ Ideal 385 (folding 13x18) s/n A98xxx (1911, patent date inside body), Tessar CZJ 21cm f6,3 s/n 142xxx (~1909), Compound s/n 203xxx.
_ TriX 311 (folding 10x15) s/n B89xxx (~1912), ICA Novar Anastigmat 16,5cm f6,8 s/n187xxx, Compound without s/n.
_ TriX 185 (folding 9x12) s/n C14xxx (~1913), ICA Novar Anastigmat 13,5cm f6,8 s/n 245xxx, simple shutter without s/n.
_ Triplex 410 (folding 13x18) s/n D87xxx (~1914), Tessar CZJ 18cm f6,8 s/n 187xxx (~1912), Compound 221xxx.
_ Ideal 205 (folding 9x12) s/n F62xxx (~1919), Tessar CZJ 13,5cm f6,3 s/n 313xxx (~1918), Compur 268xxx.
_ Ideal 111 (folding 6x9) s/n F77xxx (~1919), Doppel-Anastigmat Hekla 12cm f6,8 s/n 473xxx, Compur 267xxx.
_ Ideal 325 (folding 10x15) s/n G31xxxK (~1921, modify/repair ~1925), Tessar CZJ 16,5cm f4,5 s/n 623xxx (~1923)Compur 323xxx.
_ Ideal 385 (folding 13x18) s/n G86xxx (~1922), Tessar CZJ 18cm f4,5 s/n 418xxx (~1920), Compur 316xxx.
_ Ideal 111 (folding 6x9) s/n J26xxx (~1924), Tessar CZJ 10,5cm f4,5 s/n 489xxx (~1922), Compur 330xxx.
_ Trona 212 (folding 9x12) s/n J74xxx (~1924), Tessar CZJ 13,5cm f4,5 s/n 599xxx (~1923), Compur 375xxx.
_ Orix 308 (folding 10x15) s/n J79xxx '~1924), Doppel-Amatar 16,5cm f6,8 s/n 362xxx, Compur 288xxx.
_ Ideal 325 (folding 10x15) s/n K68xxx (~1925), Tessar CZJ 16,5cm f4,5 s/n 623xxx (~1923), Compur 393xxx.

Following letter , L, is for the first Zeiss Ikon cameras made in 1926.

Alexander Rutz · Jan 29, 2019

Here’s another one:

ICA Ideal 245
ICA Lens 120/5.6 #258816 (probably not orginal, since the infinity-setting was moved)
Compound Shutter #N2218999
Base #47723
Back #C84424

So the C should mean it’s built around 1913?

The shutter apparently is from 1932, which proves my theory regarding the lens. —> http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Compur_serial_numbers

Jojje · Jan 30, 2019

Icarette II (6x9); lens Novar Anastigmat F=10,5cm/6,8 nr. 449007; in automat shutter (25-100); number in body (and back): G. 93549

Alexander Rutz · Feb 7, 2019

ICA Universal Juwel 275 (9×12 rotating back)
#J55759

Alexander Rutz · Sep 2, 2019

Alexander Rutz said:
Here’s another one:

ICA Ideal 245
ICA Lens 120/5.6 #258816 (probably not orginal, since the infinity-setting was moved)
Compound Shutter #N2218999
Base #47723
Back #C84424

So the C should mean it’s built around 1913?

Sorry, that’s meant to say »ICA Ideal 246«. I wish I could edit the original post.

Andy38 · Sep 7, 2019

Hello,
Some other ICA cameras :
_ Ideal (9 x 12, without number of type) A17xxx (~1911, with lens Extra-Rapid Aplanat Helios 139xxx and automatic shutter.
_ Ideal (10 x 15, without number of type) A57xxx (~1911) and C4 and F3 (may be modifications ), with lens Berthiot Olor 170xxx (~1928 and Compound shutter.
_ Volta 295 (10 x 15) E54xxx (I guess letter E was used for WW1 era), with lens ICA Novar Anastigmat 323xxx and auto shutter.
_ Polyscop 608 (rigid body, stereo 45 x 107 mm) E17xxx (1914~1918) and back H18xx (~1923), with 2 lenses Tessar Carl Zeiss Jena 428937 and 428938, and Compur shutter.
_ Icarette (6 x 9) G77xxx (on body and back) (~1922) with lens Doppel-Anastigmat Hekla 453xxx and Compound shutter.
_ Ideal 111 (6 x 9) J75xxx (~1924), with lens Tessar Carl Zeiss Jena 516xxx and Compur 348xxx
_ Ideal 225 (9 x 12) K31xxx (~1925) with lens Tessar Carl Zeiss Jena 568xxx and Compur 818xxx.
_ Ideal 111 (6 x 9) K312xxx (~1925, wooden body, others are metal), with lens ICA Doppel-Anastigmat Litonar 651xxx and Compur 375xxx.
_

Andy38 · Sep 18, 2019

A Lloyd-Cupido 540 (122 film or 9x12 plate) E1 (inside the back, WW1 period), with lens Doppel-Anastigmat Hekla n° 456xxx and Compur 263xxx (~1914).

Ron (Netherlands) · Nov 26, 2019

Question to the OP: are you putting all the above and further info in one table to be presented in this thread? I think otherwise the info would be hard to search and would have hardly any practical importance.
If the info would become accessible e.g. with a table, I could (and would be willing) to contribute

Jojje · Dec 21, 2021

ICA Ideal 225, number in body: J. 16796; lens Zeiss Tessar number 496344.

Donald Qualls · Dec 21, 2021

I have an Ica marked Ideal, I'll try to remember to look for the body serial and post that along with the lens serial when I'm home. Given it's a bayonet lens mount, I don't know how much confidence we could have that the lens is original, though.

Ron (Netherlands) · Dec 22, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
I have an Ica marked Ideal, I'll try to remember to look for the body serial and post that along with the lens serial when I'm home. Given it's a bayonet lens mount, I don't know how much confidence we could have that the lens is original, though.

Well the OP hasn't visited this forum after 2016, I doubt he's still be interested.....

...about the bayonet mount: that mount was only specific for ICA camera's (Zeiss changed the bayonet); so changes are big you have the original matching shutter/lens combo.

Donald Qualls · Dec 22, 2021

Ron (Netherlands) said:
...about the bayonet mount: that mount was only specific for ICA camera's (Zeiss changed the bayonet); so changes are big you have the original matching shutter/lens combo.

I also have a Zeiss 9x12 Ideal with what seems to be the same bayonet type, except it's a different diameter front standard opening. The Ica has a 15 cm f/4.5 Tessar in dial-set Compur, while the Zeiss has a 13.5 cm f/4.5 Tessar in a slightly smaller dial-set Compur. Given these cameras don't have adjustable infinity stops or multiple focus scales, I've wondered what good the bayonet would be -- I guess for longer lenses you could just extend the bed further (at least one of the two is double extension, IIRC), but you'd have to eyeball the lock position for, say, a 110 mm or similar -- or just leave the standard in the retracted position and crank out the bed...

Jojje · Dec 22, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
I also have a Zeiss 9x12 Ideal with what seems to be the same bayonet type, except it's a different diameter front standard opening. The Ica has a 15 cm f/4.5 Tessar in dial-set Compur, while the Zeiss has a 13.5 cm f/4.5 Tessar in a slightly smaller dial-set Compur. Given these cameras don't have adjustable infinity stops or multiple focus scales, I've wondered what good the bayonet would be -- I guess for longer lenses you could just extend the bed further (at least one of the two is double extension, IIRC), but you'd have to eyeball the lock position for, say, a 110 mm or similar -- or just leave the standard in the retracted position and crank out the bed...

My ICA Ideal has a 13,5 cm Tessar in dial set Compur. I've sometimes noticed scribed lines on the rails to mark infinity, but not on this one. Max extension approx 250mm. Maybe this lens bayonet was more like a marketing gimmick.

Donald Qualls · Dec 22, 2021

Jojje said:
Maybe this lens bayonet was more like a marketing gimmick.

I've wondered about that...

Ron (Netherlands) · Dec 27, 2021

Jojje said:
My ICA Ideal has a 13,5 cm Tessar in dial set Compur. I've sometimes noticed scribed lines on the rails to mark infinity, but not on this one. Max extension approx 250mm. Maybe this lens bayonet was more like a marketing gimmick.

At the time one could buy different lenses in compound or compur shutters that came with the same size mount, so you could easily switch without having to change the lens panel. I have a Tropica with a compur shutter that has 3 different labels for 3 different lens/shutter combo's. So most important is first to know what size your compound or compur shutter is - and then try to find comparable ones with different lenses. Please note there are not many vintage shutters on the market which stil bear the bayonet hooks, many times they are taken out/lost.
A favorite lens/shutter combo with bayonet at the time was the Tele Tessar for ICA & Zeiss Ikon and the Tele Dynar for Voigtländer.

Btw Ica/Zeiss was not the only company with a bayonet mount system; Voigtländer had a comparable - albeit a bit different - system - and of course it was like all special features a marketing gimmick as well although I've seen the same kind of ICA camera's with and without the bayonet, so I think it was an option:

Bergheil:

The Zeiss Ikon mount:

Jojje · Dec 28, 2021

Zeiss system indeed looks the same as Ica with two posts. Making tabs for lenses shouldn't be too difficult.

Andy38 · Dec 28, 2021

Jojje said:
Zeiss system indeed looks the same as Ica with two posts. Making tabs for lenses shouldn't be too difficult.

Ica and Zeiss Ikon bayonets are not compatible : to lock with Z I , you must turn clockwise, it's counter-clockwise with Ica.
The majority of Ica cameras don't have a bayonet mount.
Ideal models do have one (but not 6 x 9 models).
Sometimes a shutter with its lens can be mounted on other cameras. Here are 3 cameras : shutters of the 9 x 12 and the 10 x 15 cameras are compatible with the 13 x 18 camera, but shutters of 10 x 15 and 13 x 18 are not with 9 x 12 camera, because of their too big lens diameter, even when the bayonet fasteners are of the same diameter on the 3 cameras.

Ron (Netherlands) · Apr 4, 2022

Andy38 said:
Ica and Zeiss Ikon bayonets are not compatible : to lock with Z I , you must turn clockwise, it's counter-clockwise with Ica.
The majority of Ica cameras don't have a bayonet mount.
Ideal models do have one (but not 6 x 9 models).
Sometimes a shutter with its lens can be mounted on other cameras. Here are 3 cameras : shutters of the 9 x 12 and the 10 x 15 cameras are compatible with the 13 x 18 camera, but shutters of 10 x 15 and 13 x 18 are not with 9 x 12 camera, because of their too big lens diameter, even when the bayonet fasteners are of the same diameter on the 3 cameras.

View attachment 294239

Lovely collection!
Sometimes even the same camera can be found with different dimensions of the hole in the lens plate: I had two almost identical ICA Tropica camera's for 10x15cm plates which had different holes: one could only take the 6.3 Tessar lens, the other could take the bigger 4.5 Tessar: both lens/shutter combo's were not compatible with the other camera.
Btw the bayonet mount was an extra: I have some Tropica's with and without bayonet mount.

Project: collecting Ica serial numbers for better data (Pre-Zeiss-Ikon)

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