Processing Verichrome type 116 with issues

[Romanko]

I started developing a roll of "found" Kodak Verichrome type 116, see pictures, and discovered two issues:
1) the film is damaged at the edges in several places (torn and folded) which prevents me from loading it into a reel. I tried a Paterson Major tank that accepts type 116 and a "Universal" developing tank modified for type 116, both with no success;
2) the backing paper is stuck to the emulsion for about a third of the roll.

My plan is to improvise a Correx style apron from a 0.5 mm thick vinyl and use it in my AP tank. Removing the stuck backing paper is a more challenging problem. I am considering soaking the film for several days agitating and changing the water once or twice a day. After that I won't be able to use Barry Thornton's Two Bath developer as the film will be wet. My next option is HC-110 at fridge temperatures agitating 4 or 5 times at regular intervals. The intent is to extend the development time without increasing fog levels too much.

I would like to hear your thoughts on how to proceed. I don't have access to a darkroom which further limits my options.

 

[pentaxuser]

Just a comment from me for which I have no evidence to either confirm or deny but just instinctively I seriously wonder if any developer can actually develop at fridge temps i.e. under 4 degrees C

Do you have a source for believing HC110 will operate at 4 C ?

pentaxuser

 

[Romanko]

I normally do not go lower than 18 C but apparently it does work at around 4 C:

HC-110 at 40F? (for old film) – some experimental data

This is a follow-up to the earlier thread ((there was a url link here which no longer exists)) where we discussed the claim that processing old film at low temperature and high developer concentration helps to reduce fog. Since no one was able to point to any scientific data to support that...

www.photrio.com

This is extreme, but I found a formula of an "Arctic" Amidol-Pyrocatechin developer that works down to -40C. It uses Ethylene glycol as anti-freeze.

 

[pentaxuser]

It wasn't clear to me in that interesting link you provided what dev time was used for 40F, was it clear to you? What might have been helpful as well were examples of the difference between the fogging at 68F and 40F

Denverdad who started the thread for which you provided a link visited us as recently as March this year. It might be worthwhile to PM him.

The consensus from a previous unrelated thread was that immersion in water needs to be confined to 2 days max otherwise the emulsion might be affected

On the other hand if there are no better ways to remove the backing paper then the risk of more than 2 days may be worth the chance

Best of luck

pentaxuser

 

[Dr. no]

Wow, that looks like an actual "old" roll of film. Refreshing. Most questions are "I have a roll that expired last year, is it ruined?"
I shot some Verichrome almost that old, at half box speed, and got visible images with a lot of fog and spots, using D-76. I haven't tried for latent images, though.

 

[Donald Qualls]

FWIW, I got pretty good results from a roll of found Verichrome (came to me in an Autographic Vest Pocket Kodak) using borax-accelerated D-23 with two tablets of Anti-Fog No. 1 in a liter of developer. I developed at cool room temp (around 16 C) using D-76 time, and because the film is orthochromatic, I inspected under red safelight at half the time, and again at about 85% before cutting developmnt short by 5%.

 

[Romanko]

It wasn't clear to me in that interesting link you provided what dev time was used for 40F

I could not find any information on the development time either. I'll try digging into older threads.

The consensus from a previous unrelated thread was that immersion in water needs to be confined to 2 days max

Once again, that requires some research. I would assume that temperature plays a role here. If the problem is due to softening of the emulsion then soaking time could be potentially extended by pre-harderning. Another concern would be bacteria / fungi but that can be solved by adding alcohol (or formalin which would also hardern the emulsion).

I haven't tried for latent images, though.

This is probably a subject for a different thread but I always wanted to know if there's any difference in fog/sensitivity/contrast between images shot on long-expired film and latent images of the same age. If someone finds exposed and unexposed rolls of the same film stock stored together for several decades that would be an interesting experiment.

I got pretty good results from a roll of found Verichrome (came to me in an Autographic Vest Pocket Kodak) using borax-accelerated D-23 with two tablets of Anti-Fog No. 1 in a liter of developer

I should try this formula. It is close to Barry Thornton's 2 Bath which uses slightly less Metol (6.5 g vs 7.5 g), Sodium Sulphite (80 g vs 100 g) and Sodium Metaborate instead of Borax for accelerator. I could not find any Anti-Fog No 1 / benzotriazole in Down Under but I'll keep searching. Can Potassium Bromide be used instead?

"
Potassium bromide or benzotriazole are the most commonly recommended. I'd suggest you look up Donald Quall's website and look at some of his developer trials to get an idea of amounts.
"
from https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/additive-to-reduce-fogging.409093/

What is the address of the website mentioned in the post?

 

[Donald Qualls]

Unfortunately, my email provider stopped hosting personal web sites, even if I were to pay them, so my site is gone. The Wayback Machine has copies, however. I don't have the URL handy at work, but I believe there's an article on Parodinal that links it.

That said, potassium bromide is not, in my experience, even approximately as effective as benzotriazole. I found it made almost no difference in fog levels with Parodinal (which was where I tested it).

 

[jnamia]

2) the backing paper is stuck to the emulsion for about a third of the roll.

My plan is to improvise a Correx style apron from a 0.5 mm thick vinyl and use it in my AP tank. Removing the stuck backing paper is a more challenging problem. I am considering soaking the film for several days agitating and changing the water once or twice a day.

sorry to tell you this, but from experience of emulsion layers being stuck to things, I hate to tell you I have a feeling the stuck emulsion won't really want to release from the paper. emulsion sometimes does that, especially if it is old and was wound up on a spool and warm ( and who knows maybe it got wet or the environment was humid ) and the emulsion grabbed the paper: stuck is sometimes stuck. you might consider only soaking it for a few hours in warmish water with a mild surfactant like a few drops of photo Flo ( or similar ) maybe put the film that is soaking in a water jacket so it stays the right temperature, I would be hesitant of soaking any film (old or new ) for several days in any liquid. I have rolls of film that were new, exposed, developed and printed in 1985 that were stored in print file plastic sheets that got wet. the emulsion just turned to goop on and off of the plastic substrate.

good luck with your project!

 

[Donald Qualls]

the stuck emulsion won't really want to release from the paper.

Sad but true.

Gelatin is excellent glue. By the time you get it hot/wet enough (under red safelight or in total darkness) to release from the paper, it will almost certainly have released from the film base first.

 

[Romanko]

Here's an update on my progress.

I made an apron out of a strip of vinyl table cloth, polyurethane bumpers used for kitchen cabinets, a piece of PVC pipe and super-glue. Here it is with some scrap 116 film loaded:



The whole setup looks like this:



I abandoned the idea of low-temperature development and decided on HC-110 dilution B at 18 C. The test strip is below. The shortest time is 3 minutes and the increment is 1 minute. I want to err on the side of having a thinner negative so 7 minutes looks like the right time. Maybe, 7:30.



The artifact in the 4 minute band (second on the right) is where the backing paper stuck to the emulsion. I was not particularly careful while handling the strip so it came off, emulsion and all.

It just came to me that animal glue used in traditional woodworking and gelatine are pretty much the same substance. Not a good thought.

Anyway, the film is loaded into the tank and is soaking in demineralised water at the ambient temperature of about 24 C. The plan is to leave it till tomorrow changing water several times. I might additionally wash it in "40% ethanol solution in water" for several minutes but doubt that it will help much. I am reluctant to add Photo Flo. It will be extremely hard to wash before developing. A mild solution of baking soda was another option but I am not keen on it either.