Processing at home with non-SM Kodak chemicals

[hjf]

I got a MF camera recently and I've been shooting in black and white, which i process at home. Now I want to try color, but there are no labs in my city that will do 120, and shipping is expensive.
So I want to try processing at home. I've been reading kodak's documentation and i need some clarification. The info I got was from Dead Link Removed which is a compilation of Kodak documentation for color chemicals.

I understand that "machine" chemicals are replenisher only. You're not supposed to start with "fresh developer", but use the aged (seasoned) solution. In case you need fresh chemicals, you use the replenisher solution and add "starter". Is this correct? What happens if I don't add starter? Forum posts are split on this. Some people say it's definitely needed, other people say they haven't had a problem with it.

I read on that document that i need to:
1. Mix the chemicals with the indicated amount of water, in order (parts A, mix, then B, mix, then C, and mix again) of developer. With this I will get the "developer".
2. To this developer I'll add more water AND starter developer to make "tank solution". which is what I'll use to develop film.

But there is one thing I don't understand about this. It mentions adding 14mL of "starter developer".

Now, I can't get Kodak brand starter developer (it's complicated, and there's no way around it so please don't tell me to look elsewhere for this) so I was offered instead "Lucky" brand starter developer (remember Lucky SHD 100 film?). But the size they have is to make 30L of starter developer. So I don't understand if I'm supposed to add 14mL of CONCENTRATE to 986mL of tank solution, or 14mL of SOLUTION (out of 30 litres???). I suppose they mean the bottle of starter developer makes 30L of TANK solution, so I add 14mL of concentrate.

For reference, the chemicals I was offered were the following:

C41 REV.RELL.P/5 Lts.855-1079 (developer replenisher)
C41 BLANQ-REL1.5Lt.RA 659-5870 (bleach replenisher)
C41 FIJADOR P/5Lts.BNP107-7577 515-6674 (fixer)
C41 ESTAB.RELL.P/10Lt.659-5904 802-2105 (stabilizer replenisher)
C41 REV.INICIAL DE 30 lts.LUCKY (starter developer)
C41 BLANQ.INICIAL LUCKY 30LTS (starter bleach)

The CAT numbers don't match Kodak documentations because they seem to be Brazilian market versions. I only found them in the Kodak Brazil website with no documentation (i hope they come with paper instructions at least).

 

[RPC]

Replenisher is used in machines to keep the developer in a constant state of freshness. A machine developer tank that has had film run through it for awhile and has been properly replenished is considered "seasoned" and should give essentially the same results as freshly mixed developer put in the tank. Freshly mixed developer can be either a straight developer mix, OR replenisher that has had the proper amount of water and starter added. Either will give the same results. If you do not add the starter, the developer will be a little too active and will likely result in negatives that are out of spec. (C-41 only, not RA-4) However, as film is run through the processor, and replenishment takes place over time, the problem will eventually correct itself as chemicals that are in the starter (which you didn't add) will build up on their own in the developer because these chemicals are produced in the developer as a byproduct of development. (That is why they are not put in the replenisher.) But adding the starter initially will produce a working solution developer that is proper to start with. That is the sole purpose of starter, to make a proper working solution developer out of replenisher. But a normal developer mix could be used to start with as well. Thus, starter should only be added to replenisher, never a straight developer mix or already seasoned tank.

The Kodak instructions I have used say to add the 14 ml of water and water to replenisher to make 1 liter of working tank solution.

Make sure the A, B, and C components are to make replenisher, not regular developer, (you said "developer" in #1, I think you meant replenisher), if you are going to add the starter and water. If it is straight developer, you can use it as is.

 

[hjf]

Replenisher is used in machines to keep the developer in a constant state of freshness. A machine developer tank that has had film run through it for awhile and has been properly replenished is considered "seasoned" and should give essentially the same results as freshly mixed developer put in the tank. Freshly mixed developer can be either a straight developer mix, OR replenisher that has had the proper amount of water and starter added. Either will give the same results. If you do not add the starter, the developer will be a little too active and will likely result in negatives that are out of spec. (C-41 only, not RA-4) However, as film is run through the processor, and replenishment takes place over time, the problem will eventually correct itself as chemicals that are in the starter (which you didn't add) will build up on their own in the developer because these chemicals are produced in the developer as a byproduct of development. (That is why they are not put in the replenisher.) But adding the starter initially will produce a working solution developer that is proper to start with. That is the sole purpose of starter, to make a proper working solution developer out of replenisher. But a normal developer mix could be used to start with as well. Thus, starter should only be added to replenisher, never a straight developer mix or already seasoned tank.

Excellent. I got it right, then!

The Kodak instructions I have used say to add the 14 ml of water and water to replenisher to make 1 liter of working tank solution.

I think you meant to say 14mL of starter and water to replenisher? Did you mean starter *concentrate*?

Make sure the A, B, and C components are to make replenisher, not regular developer, (you said "developer" in #1, I think you meant replenisher), if you are going to add the starter and water. If it is straight developer, you can use it as is.

Yes, sorry, I meant "developer replenisher".

I think the only thing left to know is if the LUCKY brand starter will work with the same proportion as the Kodak one.

 

[RPC]

I think you meant to say 14mL of starter and water to replenisher? Did you mean starter *concentrate*?

Yes, sorry. I meant starter and water, not water and water. I guess I have water on the brain.

Can't say if the Lucky works the same as the Kodak. At the lab I work at, in the past we have used Kodak starter with Fuji replenisher, so who knows, you may get Lucky.

Try the 14ml of starter with the replenisher and water to make 1 liter of developer and run a test roll.

 

[hjf]

Try the 14ml of starter with the replenisher and water to make 1 liter of developer and run a test roll.

My guess is that starter is not really that critical, then?
Since it's a thing that "sorts itself out" with time, if using just replenisher. The first "few" rolls in freshly prepared chemicals (on a machine) will be not-so-good but results will improve with time.

So i think adding a couple more or less mL of starter will not make a drastic change? I mean, in proportion: can be a few mL off and still work fine. If i add 12-18 instead of 14mL it may still give very satisfactory results. Probably better and more consistent than a lab, where the machine may not have the proper maintenance. Right?

My logic is that, whatever chemicals are released on the developer as a byproduct of developing, are sort of "average" in nature: some rolls release more, some less, but in average there is a balance. Since this is just an average, it can't be that critical.

Last time I had a roll developed at a local lab the results were actually very good, but it did take more than the usual "one hour" since, according to them, so few people develop film nowadays, they have to start the machine and wait for it to warm up before they can start processing my film. This makes me think the chemicals are sitting unused in that machine for weeks, even months at a time.

 

[RPC]

The exact amount of starter is probably not too critical to get negatives that are acceptable to you but be sure and add the water, as the replenisher is a little more concentrated than straight developer. The difference will probably be a negative that is slightly out of spec (and not likely noticable) if the starter amount is a little off, if there is any difference at all. Go with the 14ml to start and see what happens and run further tests if necessary.

 

[Rolfe Tessem]

Out of curiousity, why do you want to use non-SM chemistry when the SM stuff sounds like exactly what you need/want?

 

[hjf]

Out of curiousity, why do you want to use non-SM chemistry when the SM stuff sounds like exactly what you need/want?

Because Kodak doesn't sell these in Argentina.

 

[RedSun]

I agreed with most has been said.

Other developer starters work just fine, such as the CPAC Trebla chemicals. I use CPAC developer starter with Kodak developer.

I would highly recommend to use the exact amount of starter with the developer. You do not want to deviate for no reason.

I think almost all CN-41 chemicals are the same type. For single-use, you just add starter to the "developer" and throw it away. No replenishing.

Often time, I use "aged" working developer, but add more developer replenisher. I think this is good for 3-6 months old working solution. But I probably won't use working solution more than 1 year old. Even with that, I cut some old exposed film to test.

Developer starter stores much longer than developer concentrate. And it is cheap.