Processed black and white negatives and "daylight" storage

[mauro35]

Hi all,

I have been thinking about something I´m curious to know more about, and I hope APUGers´ wisdom will shed some light on it (just to stay on topic...)
It seems quite well proven that daylight or even artificial light is harmful if long-term storage of color negatives and chromes is desired, because the light sensitive dyes that make the image once the film is processed can fade.
I am wondering if there is a deleterious effect of light also for black and white negatives. I have read several articles and books on proper care and storage of processed film, but could not find a clear conclusion on that. Of course I would assume it is always recommendable to store negatives, either black and white or color, in the dark, but is it really necessary for the former?
If one were to print the same black and white negative a significantly high number of times, would the exposure to the light from the enlarger damage the negative eventually?

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Probably no adverse effect for archival processed negatives but probably for insufficiently fixed and/or washed negatives. There is a problem for negatives from staining developers and chromogenic BW negatives. However why would you leave negatives exposed out in the open?

 

[heespharm]

Yes your negative, like anything else absorbs energy... And darkens.... Keeping them out of light helps slow that down


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[mauro35]

However why would you leave negatives exposed out in the open?

I myself would not. I try in principle to keep my processed negatives protected from unnecessary exposure to light, but while I think I can understand how light would interact detrimentally with color negatives, I am curious to know more about the interactions and potential effects on black and white film.

 

[gone]

The negative would probably be all scratched up from too much handling to be very usable before you got to a point where light affected it to any noticeable degree IF it had been processed properly. Silver is a metal, so light won't affect it much at all, but the emulsion and film base can be damaged. Temperature and humidity are serious issues too, especially the latter. I would think that a lot of negatives have been ruined by getting stuck to the print file pages due to humidity, and then there's fungus or mold problems. Depends on what the film base is made of on your particular negs.

 

[AgX]

Yes your negative, like anything else absorbs energy... And darkens.... Keeping them out of light helps slow that down.

Metallic Silver (that is what the image in classic b&w ohotography is made of) absorbs energy indeed, but it will not darken.

 

[heespharm]

Metallic Silver (that is what the image in classic b&w ohotography is made of) absorbs energy indeed, but it will not darken.

But the celluloid will


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[Sal Santamaura]

You've not specified the type of negatives. XP2 SUPER is chromogenic, i.e. actually a color negative. All silver-image negatives that are on polyester base material, like most black and white sheet film is, no impact. If they're on acetate base material, like most roll film is, then I don't know for sure, but wonder whether the light energy would reduce how many years it takes until things get "vinegary."

 

[Oren Grad]

Acetate Film Base Deterioration - The Vinegar Syndrome

Image Permanence Institute Storage Guide for Acetate Film

 

[railwayman3]

I agree that silver itself would be relatively unaffected by light, but, if the negs are not well processed and washed, residues of other compounds may remain and be affected. Also, as others say, there could be a long-term effect of light (and maybe heat, of sunlight) on the gelatine and film base.
(Actually, I can't quite see the point of the question, as surely any decent form of dedicated neg storage, is going to keep the file pages in the dark, either in boxes, files or cabinets. Even a ring binder on a bookshelf will be largely light-proof?)

 

[mauro35]

Thank you all for the replies and Oren for the links. Interesting material to read.

(Actually, I can't quite see the point of the question, as surely any decent form of dedicated neg storage, is going to keep the file pages in the dark, either in boxes, files or cabinets. Even a ring binder on a bookshelf will be largely light-proof?)

I agree that decently stored negatives will be more or less protected from direct sunlight, but the point of my question is not necessarily to find out what is the best way to store black and white negatives, I am more interested in the interaction between light and processed silver gelatine films and possible long term effects of it. This is because I could find out plenty of information on color film, but somehow much less on black and white. I often read that storing color negatives in the dark is a must, but no mention about this for black and white material, so my curiosity, why is that?

 

[Oren Grad]

I am more interested in the interaction between light and processed silver gelatine films and possible long term effects of it. This is because I could find out plenty of information on color film, but somehow much less on black and white. I often read that storing color negatives in the dark is a must, but no mention about this for black and white material, so my curiosity, why is that?

The reason was hinted at in your original post and touched on in some of the replies: the most immediate vulnerability of color films and of chromogenic B&W films is that the image is made up of dye molecules that are especially unstable under light exposure, while the image in traditional B&W films is metallic silver, which is not. It's not anything more subtle than that.

 

[mauro35]

So to summarize, if I understood correctly a possible detrimental interaction between light and black and white film would happen with the base of the film and not the silver image. Are there significant differences in the effect depending on the type of base? Meaning could some films be more susceptible to degradation than others?

 

[David Lyga]

Look, NOTHING is totally immune to harsh sunlight. You will find little difference if you constantly store B&W negatives in harsh sunlight but far less than with color. Still, why subject them to this when it is not necessary? heespharm brings up the point that we are not talking solely about silver. - David Lyga

 

[mauro35]

Hi David,
I certainly cannot disagree that it is absolutely unnecessary to subject film to harsh sunlight, nor I have any intention of doing that. I am simply curious about the topic of long-term film preservation and all the aspects of it. I am not referring in this case about the preservation of my own films, I happen to like to read and learn about this topic. It interests me, that´s all. I hope I am not getting everybody bored here.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

All the research and information that's been summarized and linked to ignores any separate possible effects of light on black and white film's life expectancy because there's no practical reason to consider it. Maintaining the recommended temperature and relative humidity levels just naturally leads one to storage in dark places. Maintaining high levels of illumination within such storage environments is neither necessary nor common.

If your curiosity is adequate, perhaps you should undertake a long-term study of what effect, if any, light level has on the life expectancy of black and white films as an independent variable. Control all other environmental factors, preferably within optimum ranges. Let us know what you find out.

 

[heespharm]

All the research and information that's been summarized and linked to ignores any separate possible effects of light on black and white film's life expectancy because there's no practical reason to consider it. Maintaining the recommended temperature and relative humidity levels just naturally leads one to storage in dark places. Maintaining high levels of illumination within such storage environments is neither necessary nor common.

If your curiosity is adequate, perhaps you should undertake a long-term study of what effect, if any, light level has on the life expectancy of black and white films as an independent variable. Control all other environmental factors, preferably within optimum ranges. Let us know what you find out.

Yeah sounds like the op should run some experiments for us ;-)

Like develop a roll and cut it in half and keep one on his window sill and one in the back of a cabinet and see the effects in a year or so


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[Sal Santamaura]

Yeah sounds like the op should run some experiments for us...

For himself, not for us. I haven't noticed anyone else interested.

...Like develop a roll and cut it in half and keep one on his window sill and one in the back of a cabinet and see the effects in a year or so...

For meaningful results, he'd probably need to be a lot more rigorous than a single, casual trial like that.

 

[heespharm]

For himself, not for us. I haven't noticed anyone else interested.

For meaningful results, he'd probably need to be a lot more rigorous than a single, casual trial like that.

This isn't rocket science... We're not trying to prove something scientifically... Just mere curiosity


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[mauro35]

Sounds like an interesting experiment. I wish we had more sunlight here in Finland, that would speed-up the process...

 

[pdeeh]

I admire your persistence and empathise with your desire to learn, mauro35

It sometimes seems really really difficult at APUG for other people to get that the reason behind a question can be a simple desire to understand the mechanics (or chemistry or physics) of a process or issue, and not a desire to try something which is obviously wildly inappropriate or pointless.

Good luck and keep asking questions!

 

[mauro35]

Thank you for your kind words pdeeh!
I´ll keep asking!

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...For meaningful results, he'd probably need to be a lot more rigorous than a single, casual trial like that.

This isn't rocket science... We're not trying to prove something scientifically... Just mere curiosity...

Without scientific proof, there's no point in doing anything beyond speculating. Some people's curiosity can be satisfied by non-scientific anecdote(s) or "faith." If that's the only thing desired, have at it.

The world, including analog photography practice, is always better served by controlled scientific understanding. Making light of that approach supports superstition and impedes real progress. Yes, I'm in a small minority, but will nonetheless continue to advocate for rigorous proof of all things.

 

[heespharm]

Without scientific proof, there's no point in doing anything beyond speculating. Some people's curiosity can be satisfied by non-scientific anecdote(s) or "faith." If that's the only thing desired, have at it.

The world, including analog photography practice, is always better served by controlled scientific understanding. Making light of that approach supports superstition and impedes real progress. Yes, I'm in a small minority, but will nonetheless continue to advocate for rigorous proof of all things.

Run your own tests then buddy... Not everything needs scientific proof... And this is coming from a scientist! I say have fun and anecdotal evidence is enough... It's not that serious...

 

[Sal Santamaura]

Run your own tests then buddy...

As previously indicated, I have no interest in the matter, so will run no tests. It's the OP's interest in knowing about how an irrelevant factor affects life expectancy of black and white negatives that's being discussed, not mine.

...I say have fun and anecdotal evidence is enough...

If it's enough for the OP to "have fun," fine. That's why I previously posted "have at it." Just don't rely on his "results" as being in any way meaningful.

...It's not that serious...

Certainly not, but such a lack of rigorous inquiry and reliance on anecdotes is what leads to absurd decisions in other areas of life. Citing but one current example, refusal to have children vaccinated, thereby causing public health crises.

The public lacks interest in or understanding of scientific method. Promoting, rather than denigrating, rigorous inquiry is what I'd expect and hope for from someone who claims to be a scientist. I guess not.