Process B&W differently if intended for scanning?

[MattKing]

If I overexpose, is the BW negative less or more dense? What does that do with chemical printing? What does that do with digital scanning and printing?

Over-exposure increases density. Too much over-exposure forces too much of your image into the shoulder of the characteristic curve, reducing the quality of how highlights are rendered.
I find it more difficult to scan dense negatives, and often am unhappy with how the highlights end up. If I were to work with a higher end scanning flow - say with a Flextight - I might have a different experience.
When printing dense negatives in the enlarger, I get better results than when I scan them, but the dense negatives require more work then properly exposed negatives.
I'm speaking in terms of black and white here, but in the pre-digital times when I was doing a lot of colour printing, I had similar experiences.

 

[Adrian Bacon]

If I overexpose, is the BW negative less or more dense? What does that do with chemical printing? What does that do with digital scanning and printing?

more exposure = more density.

if darkroom printing it typically just means longer printing time unless you are way up in the shoulder of the film.

for scanning, it’s generally not an issue, but you do want to be careful about retaining enough discrete tonal values per stop of exposure or your highlights will look very chunky. Depending on the scanner, where that point is will vary, so it’s generally good practice to keep the negative density range relatively low. This is why many people say a thin negative scans better. It’s all about maintaining as many discrete tone values as possible per stop of exposure. Also, depending on the scanner, if you start to get too much density, the scanner will introduce noise from the digitization into the highlights which will make them look chunky as well. Where that happens will vary quite a bit depending on the scanner. Some are very clean, others might say they’re 16 bit, but you really only have 11 or 12 bits that aren’t loaded with noise. In that area more money does generally buy a better scanner. For negatives, you generally want to have a very clean 3.3 to 3.6 log of available tonal range as a minimum. More is better, but if your scanner is 16 bit and has low noise in the 65535 to 32 number range, you’ll be fine as long as the negative fits in there with the highlights not going below 32. A well exposed and developed negative is generally quite a bit less than 2.7 log density range, so usually it’s not so much a problem.

this is for black and white. Color is similar, but more complicated.

 

[PhilBurton]

Don't know if you want to spend the money or not, but JOBO makes 600ml and 1000ml bottles. https://www.catlabs.info/product/jobo-600ml-bottles

Pricey compared to similar bottles at B&H Photo, and also clear. I had the impression that Xtol should be stored in brown glass bottles or opaque containers. But thanks anyway for the link.

 

[PhilBurton]

more exposure = more density.

if darkroom printing it typically just means longer printing time unless you are way up in the shoulder of the film.

for scanning, it’s generally not an issue, but you do want to be careful about retaining enough discrete tonal values per stop of exposure or your highlights will look very chunky. Depending on the scanner, where that point is will vary, so it’s generally good practice to keep the negative density range relatively low. This is why many people say a thin negative scans better. It’s all about maintaining as many discrete tone values as possible per stop of exposure. Also, depending on the scanner, if you start to get too much density, the scanner will introduce noise from the digitization into the highlights which will make them look chunky as well. Where that happens will vary quite a bit depending on the scanner. Some are very clean, others might say they’re 16 bit, but you really only have 11 or 12 bits that aren’t loaded with noise. In that area more money does generally buy a better scanner. For negatives, you generally want to have a very clean 3.3 to 3.6 log of available tonal range as a minimum. More is better, but if your scanner is 16 bit and has low noise in the 65535 to 32 number range, you’ll be fine as long as the negative fits in there with the highlights not going below 32. A well exposed and developed negative is generally quite a bit less than 2.7 log density range, so usually it’s not so much a problem.

this is for black and white. Color is similar, but more complicated.

@Adrian Bacon Very helpful and informative. Thanks.

 

[MattKing]

I had the impression that Xtol should be stored in brown glass bottles or opaque containers. But thanks anyway for the link.

I can't see any reason to do so - my working solution certainly isn't.
My local pharmacy has been generous with unused plastic 500 ml cough syrup bottles - perfect for the replenisher.

 

[PhilBurton]

I can't see any reason to do so - my working solution certainly isn't.
My local pharmacy has been generous with unused plastic 500 ml cough syrup bottles - perfect for the replenisher.

Great idea. If I end up doing 1 shot with 1:1 dilution, I could pour the just mixed 5L solution into 250 ml bottles, IF such are available. Just wondering if the Xtol interacts with the plastic in the bottles.

I just have to ask. Is your local pharmacy a CVS or Walgreens? Both are near me.

 

[MattKing]

I just have to ask. Is your local pharmacy a CVS or Walgreens? Both are near me.

Save-On-Foods - none of the USA pharmacy chains up here on the left coast of Canada.

 

[PhilBurton]

Save-On-Foods - none of the USA pharmacy chains up here on the left coast of Canada.

Sav-On Foods. Nope, not in the US, at least not where I live.

Just wondering. Could I use empty bottles from bottled water? They come in a variety of sizes.

 

[138S]

I have some old B&W (Kodak Plus-X and Tri-X) which fortunately has been stored frozen since being exposed. Now that I no longer have a film darkroom, the only reason for processing this film is to do scans. Should I follow the normal processing time with normal chemistry, adjusting for the age of the film, or should I change the recommended chemstry, time and/or temperature?

Thanks for answering.

Phil Burton

With hybrid processing all it's easier than in the darkroom, sure you remember that printing too dense highlights can be a nightmare, with digital you have not that problem as the scanner takes 3.0D very easy, and if you scan 16bits/channel you will easily recover detail there by simply bending the curve in photoshop.

I'd not change your processing because if you do it and one day you want to print optically again then you will have problems, when mainly scanning if you make negatives that are difficult print optically you don't realize it !! this happened to me.

 

[MattKing]

Sav-On Foods. Nope, not in the US, at least not where I live.

Just wondering. Could I use empty bottles from bottled water? They come in a variety of sizes.

Our pharmacies are really different up here. For prescription drugs, they are mandated by law to charge no more than their wholesale cost, plus a dispensing fee (typically around $10.00, although their is some competition). As a result, we have lots of small, customer service oriented pharmacies - including the chains - and you find them both free standing and in places like supermarkets (Save-On-Foods being an example).
The Save-On-Foods pharmacy I use has a pharmacist assistant working there who has a dog named Kodak - how could I not get prescriptions filled there!?
I've used bottled drink containers. Currently my working solutions are stored in 2 quart juice bottles intended for keeping juice in the refrigerator - nice wide mouths, good seal-able screw on lids, a good grip and available at the Dollar Store.
The quality of the lids, including the seal, is important. Avoid metal lids or paper liners, and the threads should be reasonably long.

 

[PhilBurton]

Our pharmacies are really different up here. For prescription drugs, they are mandated by law to charge no more than their wholesale cost, plus a dispensing fee (typically around $10.00, although their is some competition). As a result, we have lots of small, customer service oriented pharmacies - including the chains - and you find them both free standing and in places like supermarkets (Save-On-Foods being an example).
The Save-On-Foods pharmacy I use has a pharmacist assistant working there who has a dog named Kodak - how could I not get prescriptions filled there!?
I've used bottled drink containers. Currently my working solutions are stored in 2 quart juice bottles intended for keeping juice in the refrigerator - nice wide mouths, good seal-able screw on lids, a good grip and available at the Dollar Store.
The quality of the lids, including the seal, is important. Avoid metal lids or paper liners, and the threads should be reasonably long.

@MattKing Thanks for all the good advice.

 

[PhilBurton]

I want to thank EVERYONE who posted here. This thread has given me lots of good information as I am now starting to plan out my "big development project." 64 rolls processed, dried, scanned, and imported into Lightroom with star ratings and keywords applied. Then comes the "fun stuff, which is printing. Oh, I'll have to get "signoff" for a printer that does good B&W. Is that topic a separate thread?

 

[George Collier]

Assuming development time is "normal" - no change to compensate for the over exposure.
If the highlights are not blocked, it will probably be grainier, will require more exposure, it should have a bit more shadow detail, and some parts of the image may have more or less separation, depending upon where they fall in the reproduction curve.
Similar with scanning. Try it - on a roll of film, bracket a range of exposures, develop all together, and see for yourself.

 

[Adrian Bacon]

I can't see any reason to do so - my working solution certainly isn't.
My local pharmacy has been generous with unused plastic 500 ml cough syrup bottles - perfect for the replenisher.

my working solution is in a clear Pyrex glass lab bottle. I keep my replenisher in a 16 liter AstroPaq wine bag in a box that I bought brand new for that purpose. When I tank up, I mix up 15 liters at a time and put it the bag.

 

[PhilBurton]

my working solution is in a clear Pyrex glass lab bottle. I keep my replenisher in a 16 liter AstroPaq wine bag in a box that I bought brand new for that purpose. When I tank up, I mix up 15 liters at a time and put it the bag.

Adrian,

I rally like the idea of a wine bag in a box. Where did you get your AstroPaq unit? I have a 2-reel Nikor tank. I haven't really decided on developer yet for my 40-year old film (long story, different thread in a different forum), but I'm leaning to Xtol 1:1 for one-shot use. That would mean mixing 5L of Xtol and then pouring it into 20 250 ml bottles. One wine bag sounds much better.

Phil

 

[MattKing]

That would mean mixing 5L of Xtol and then pouring it into 20 250 ml bottles.

Four one litre bottles, filled to the brim, plus three 350 ml bottles (with the last probably not full).
When the small ones are empty, transfer the contents from one of the one litre bottles.

 

[destroya]

Adrian,

I rally like the idea of a wine bag in a box. Where did you get your AstroPaq unit? I have a 2-reel Nikor tank. I haven't really decided on developer yet for my 40-year old film (long story, different thread in a different forum), but I'm leaning to Xtol 1:1 for one-shot use. That would mean mixing 5L of Xtol and then pouring it into 20 250 ml bottles. One wine bag sounds much better.

Phil

i get mine from amazon. just search AstroPaq reusable. I like the reusable as they have a much easier way to fill the bags if you plan to use them more than once.

https://www.amazon.com/Wine-Bladder...=AstroPaq+bags+reusable&qid=1593015229&sr=8-6


john

 

[138S]

i get mine from amazon. just search AstroPaq reusable. I like the reusable as they have a much easier way to fill the bags if you plan to use them more than once.

https://www.amazon.com/Wine-Bladder...=AstroPaq+bags+reusable&qid=1593015229&sr=8-6

john

Yes... but we should check how good is the barrier effect of that particular plastic.

An alternative is bottles from soda drinks, those are known to provide a good barrier, we may have some 2L, 1L and 500ml , the bottle can be deformated to remove air. But always mark it well to prevent accidents.

 

[destroya]

you are free to do what you want. I have 4+ years using the same bags with the same replenished batch with no oxidation loss from my working chems. thats all the research I need.

 

[138S]

you are free to do what you want. I have 4+ years using the same bags with the same replenished batch with no oxidation loss from my working chems. thats all the research I need.

Let me ask, what permanence in the bag ? What developer ? What bag?

Just it would be interesting to know in what conditions it is reported.

I've been explained that OTR (oxygen transmission rate) is a quality parameter of the BIBs, and it may vary a lot depending on the particular source or application. Some BIBs have a low transmission, but not all. Still, general quality of the fims used to manufacture the bag have improved a lot over time...

 

[Adrian Bacon]

Adrian,

I rally like the idea of a wine bag in a box. Where did you get your AstroPaq unit? I have a 2-reel Nikor tank. I haven't really decided on developer yet for my 40-year old film (long story, different thread in a different forum), but I'm leaning to Xtol 1:1 for one-shot use. That would mean mixing 5L of Xtol and then pouring it into 20 250 ml bottles. One wine bag sounds much better.

Phil

amazon: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=AstroPaq&ref=nb_sb_noss

you can get them in a variety of sizes. I use this to refill it: https://www.amazon.com/Bag-Box-Wine...ild=1&keywords=AstroPaq&qid=1593184329&sr=8-3

I think astra paq also has a Website where you can buy direct, but they only sell in larger case size quantities.

 

[Adrian Bacon]

you are free to do what you want. I have 4+ years using the same bags with the same replenished batch with no oxidation loss from my working chems. thats all the research I need.

same here... I’m going on 3 years using the same bags with no issues.

 

[MattKing]

Wish Astra Paq were sold through Amazon Canada. I can't find anything even close on our side of the line.

 

[Adrian Bacon]

Wish Astra Paq were sold through Amazon Canada. I can't find anything even close on our side of the line.

they're not the only people who make them. You should be able to get similar from any wine making supply houses. Surely Canada has those.

 

[MattKing]

they're not the only people who make them. You should be able to get similar from any wine making supply houses. Surely Canada has those.

Yes, but for some reason the few Canadian sources just aren't focused on storing wine that way.
We actually bottle our own wine at a long time business that supports customers who want to do that, and the owner has no demand for using anything except re-used wine bottles.
All the internet sources I can find have really high shipping charges - some of those are sourcing from the USA and involve duties and taxes.
Here is an Amazon.ca example - note the shipping costs and shipping delays:
https://www.amazon.ca/Wine-Purse-Re...qid=1593207541&s=kitchen-substore&sr=1-2&th=1