Problem: Negs seem "frosted," semi-opaque, but otherwise seem developed/exposed OK

[BassTone]

Hello,

I developed my first roll of film last night since a college course in 1995. The roll was 120 Kodak 400tx exp. 2008 but kept in the fridge for all that time. Chemicals: R09 1:50 68 degrees 12.5 minutes, Water stop bath at four minutes at 68 degrees, Arista Odorless Fixer 1:9 68 degrees 2 minutes, water rinse with constant flow for about six minutes. Hung to dry, with clothespin to weight. All chemicals are brand new and mixed minutes before applying.

OK first problem. I have Fuji Acros 100 ISO films and Kodak 400xt films. I had looked up a development time for the Acros 100 online as the bottle of R09 has no listing for that speed. Consensus from online forum searches was 12-13 for this. However, I put the old roll of 400xt in the changing bag and developed it according to the Acros suggested times. But 400xt time is only 11 minutes in R09, so maybe not such a big deal....maybe a big deal, don't know (please inform) In short, wrong roll, right soup.

Second problem. I have extremely hard, mineral water, but forgot to do a final rinse of this 400xt roll in distilled water with anti-spot wetting agent stuff. So after I hung it up and realized this, I mixed some distilled water and perhaps too much of the wetting agent, and proceeded to pour the mixture down the film directly, collecting with a bucket underneath. I did not carefully measure the wetting agent, and I was rushed for fear of the film drying, so I figure maybe around 10 drops slid off the spoon handle into two quarts of distilled water.

Resulting problem. The film looks properly exposed with good tonal range, BUT it is very cloudy, uniformly translucent, NOT clear where it should be like on the edges. So, it has a "frosted" look to it. Color of film is a neutral gray with a hint of "plum" to it. Film dried over night, 8 hours+

So, what has caused the "frosted" look? Can this roll be saved? Can it be printed if not corrected?

Thanks for any help you can provide. I looked for a bit, but did not see anything that was quite my situation.

best,
John

 

[George Collier]

Partial fixing might be what you see, but it would have a milky appearance.
The plum color could be remaining anti-halation dye, which some films still have after processing.
I notice with Ilford D400, that the base side is not as shiny as Tri-x, for example, and has a slightly "matte" reflective look (I use Photo Flo as directed), but it doesn't affect printing.
It's hard to get an accurate impression of what your film looks like from your description. Can you attached a scan, in color, of your film (not reversed to positive, but in neg form)?

 

[jeffreyg]

John,

It's possible that it is calcium-carbonate from your water. Try taking a piece of the film such as the leader and soak in an acid wash and then rewash in distilled water. If that works you will know it's the hard water. I don't think it was caused by over development. Reticulation is a thought but you said the chemistry was all at the same temperature - how about the film?

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/

 

[degruyl]

The fixing time looks low to me, and the milky look sounds like underfixed negatives. You can refix, so give that a shot first. Also, you can do a dunk in dH2O + photoflo after washing this time.

If you really need to remove hard water stuff, citric acid may help. I assume that it won't harm the film since it can be used as a stop bath (I think the ratio is 10-15g/liter). Not having my reference books here at the office... check this info. Citric acid should work better than acetic for dissolving hard water residue.

One thing that has vastly improved my film is to always use distilled water for anything involving chemicals (I also use distilled water as stop), and for final wash.

 

[JBrunner]

Sounds like under-fixing or fog. Try re-fixing and washing. If that doesn't do it, and it is fog, there is a fair chance you can print through it without a lot of shenanigans.

 

[Klainmeister]

Solutions: Use distilled water for chemicals, fix longer.

My thoughts

 

[tj01]

Do you have a scan of the neg from
edge to edge including sprockets ? It's very hard to tell, but inadequate fixing is definitely one of the suspects.

 

[Klainmeister]

I've had lots of issues with Acros (the only film I shoot) being "milky" from lack of fixing. I've upped my fixing to 4 minutes and try to maintain proper concentrates. Try pre-washing as well, seeing as though it has helped with some fogging issues I've also had in the past. Before when I was using 125px and Tmax 100 I never had these issues, but for some reason, Acros seems to play games with me at times.

Once again, try the solutions offered here and let us know.

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

Rule of thumb for fixing time is to use twice the 'clearing time'. Obviously, the clearing time is somewhere well over 2 minutes - when negatives begin to clear the milky/cloudy/frosty look gets patchy. Try 6 minutes minimum.

The magenta anti-halation dye comes out in fixing. Patchy dye is an indication of both inadequate fixing and inadequate washing. There is no need to waste water with constant flow when washing - change the water every minute or so until the water comes out clear with no 'hint of pink'. The use of hypo clearing agent will get the pink out faster - with film HCA isn't really needed to remove the fixer as fixer washes out much faster than the anti-halation dye.

Your negatives are eminently salvageable - just drop them back in the fix for 5 minutes and rewash.

You shouldn't use too much wetting agent - it can cause water marks all on it's own if too much is used. Measuring the stock solution for each use is a PITA and a pre-diluted gallon of working strength will get growths in it before it is used up. Try a pre-dilution of 1 oz of photo-flow added to a 16 oz bottle of 91% isopropyl alcohol - put 20ml of this with 250 ml of distilled water to make a 1-shot working solution. After hanging the film dip your fingers in the working solution and run the film between your fingers to remove the excess.

 

[pgomena]

I agree the fix time seems too short. I also think that 400ISO film three years past date is likely to have a little fog. You should be able to print right through it.

Peter Gomena

 

[BassTone]

Thank You, Thank You!

Thanks everyone so very much! There are several things to try here and I'll be on it ASAP. I'll try the citric acid test on a part clip of the leader too.

I'm definitely seeing a pattern in the responses regarding fixing time. The label said "1-2 minutes" so I went with two. Sounds like it's a bit short.

I can try and scan later today, but It won't be great as I would have to hold a lamp over the neg under clean white paper and a sheet of glass. (I need to get a good neg scanner soon so I know what I'm looking at - eying an Epson V330)

Thanks again! I'll report back after trying these suggestions.

 

[hrst]

What label says fixing time of 1-2 minutes? That is probably for fixing paper, not film. Fixing time for film usually starts from 3 minutes, with strong rapid fixer with some films, up to 10 minutes with either less rapid or more dilute fixer or TMAX films.

Underfixing is one of the most asked problems here. This should be made sticky, IMO! Always do the clearing time test as described above by Nicholas Lindan. It's very easy to do every time, especially with 35mm film (as you have the leader piece to simultaneously do the testing with). This way, you don't need to guess the sufficient fixing time. Or, you can open the tank and actually look at the film at the 2 minute mark. If it seems perfect and not milky, you are fine fixing for total of 5 minutes. If it looks somewhat milky, look again at the 3 or 4 minute mark, and so on.

The pink cast in many KODAK films is also one of the most frequent questions, and almost always answered incorrectly which causes the internet legend to go on and people getting too stressed about this almost nonexistent problem. People are furiously trying to get every hint of any minor pink tint away. If you read the information sheet about these films from the Kodak website, it gives clear instructions about this issue. A slight tint is perfectly normal and does not affect printing or longevity of the negs, but in case where the pink tint is strong or uneven, it is a sign of unsuccessful fixing and/or washing. Of course it can be hard to determine what is "strong" and what is "slight", but at least you don't need to work extremes to "wash all the pink out". Actually, in case you are washing the excess pink off, you are just hiding a sign of a fixer problem instead of fixing (pun intended) the actual problem. In case the tint is very slight, it does not affect printing, why bother with extreme washing? IMO, negs are for printing. And, even if you wanted to watch the bare negs for some reason---pink is a very cute tint, isn't it? .

 

[randyB]

How long did you let the film warm up from the fridge? If you went straight from the fridge-into the tank-then developer all in a short time the film might still have enough "coolness" to cause reticulation, it is unlikely but possible. Also, was the film sealed in an airtight container in the fridge? Was it ever pushed to the back and frozen? I've had that happen to bottled water before I adjusted the fridge setting. As others have said, fixing times should be in the 5-10 minute range, too short a time might also cause this problem. Just re-wet and re-fix.

 

[BassTone]

HRST, It is in fact a universal fixer for both paper and film, so that might be the reason for the 1-2 minute suggestion, but It's unfortunate that they don't inform the consumer of the discrepancy. Perhaps if they used less label space telling me all they ways in which I should not eat or drink the fixative, there would be more room for these details LOL! Thanks for the info about the pink tint too.

RandyB, sorry for any confusion. The film had been stored since purchase in the door of the fridge, but I had let it reach room temperature before shooting and it remained at room temperature throughout the loading/developing process. But I will keep this concern in mind for future developing. Thanks!

 

[BassTone]

Ahhhhh!

Under fixing seems to have been the problem. I now have two separate mixes, "Fix 1" and "Fix2" per suggestions made here, and used a longer time. I also did a proper mix of wetting agent this time. It's still drying, but things look very right to me! Nice and clear. Tonality, from what I can tell so far, looks excellent with the exception of one that was the result of too short of a shutter speed, and I suspected that after I took the shot anyway. With just a cursory inspection, I'd say It came out pretty well, and I think I will have some good pix for my test roll on this old Hawkeye Brownie.

Thanks for your help folks! Much appreciated. I'm primarily a painter/drawer, but I've always loved photography and I'm glad to be back in the saddle! Now for that dark room.....

 

[2F/2F]

Hi,

I haven't used that fixer, but are you sure it is supposed to be used at 1:9 for film? That is a common paper dilution for a rapid fixer concentrate. 1:4 is common for making film fixer. If this is what you did, the 1:9 solution can still fix the film, but it will take longer. There is a clearing test you can do before developing that will tell you how long to fix. Take your snipped film leader and place one drop of your working solution fixer on it. Let it sit there for a minute. The drop will clear a "hole" on the leader. Then, take some tongs and dangle the whole leader into the graduate full of fixer and start a timer. Agitate every now and then, and stop the timer at the moment when you can no longer see a distinction between the original "hole" and the rest of the leader. Multiply the time on the timer by two (or three to be safe) to get your fixing time.

Since you are using Acros, which is a tabular-grained film, like T-Max, fixing times will likely be longer than with traditionally-grained films like your Kodak Tri-X.

You can refix your milky negatives. Just get them wet for a few seconds first, then refix as normal.

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

internet legend to go on and people getting too stressed about this almost nonexistent problem. ... A slight tint is perfectly normal and does not affect printing or longevity of the negs, but in case where the pink tint is strong or uneven, it is a sign of unsuccessful fixing and/or washing. ... you don't need to work extremes to "wash all the pink out".

You are quite right, If the tint is even then there is not much point in getting the last of the dye out. I was a bit over the top with the advice to wash (er, soak) until there was no more pink. I judge the progress in removing the dye by the color of the wash/soak water - if it has little to no color in it then the negatives are done, though they may still have a slight tint to them.

 

[Klainmeister]

...success stories just warm my heart! Glad to hear things went well.

And welcome to the addiction.