Prints turning brown?

[MrBrowning]

I just made a bunch of prints last night and this morning I took them out of the darkroom. When I got home from work they all had turned a brownish color. I was using LPD developer and TF-4 fixer. I've not had this problem before. What could be the cause? I have check my safelight. I was using Ilford RC pearl paper. I'm thinking maybe the fixer was bad? I followed the instructions and fixed for 1 min with constant agitation.

 

[MattKing]

Bad fixer and/or incomplete wash.

 

[hoffy]

Agree with Matt - bad fix or incomplete wash, leaning towards the fix being bad.

Even when printing, I always do a clip test with a piece of film to make sure the fix is working before I start. It has become habit, even after mixing fresh fix (this becomes my reference point). Also, what strength working solution is your fix?

As for washing, what is your washing routine? You should be washing RC prints in reasonably decent flowing water - Ilford suggest a minimum of 30 seconds(!!!????) if you are in a hurry, but this would in no way be archival at all. The reason I have written this is that even with minimal washing, you shouldn't see print degrading overnight. I have always washed for around 4 1/2 to 5 minutes with a decent water flow.

 

[MrBrowning]

Bad fixer and/or incomplete wash.

Thanks I suspected the fixer but since I'm out I have to wait for B&H to ship me some more before I could confirm.

Agree with Matt - bad fix or incomplete wash, leaning towards the fix being bad.

Even when printing, I always do a clip test with a piece of film to make sure the fix is working before I start. It has become habit, even after mixing fresh fix (this becomes my reference point). Also, what strength working solution is your fix?

As for washing, what is your washing routine? You should be washing RC prints in reasonably decent flowing water - Ilford suggest a minimum of 30 seconds(!!!????) if you are in a hurry, but this would in no way be archival at all. The reason I have written this is that even with minimal washing, you shouldn't see print degrading overnight. I have always washed for around 4 1/2 to 5 minutes with a decent water flow.

Wash was for at least 5 minutes since that's what I use as my standard for RC, however some went longer because I forgot to set the timer. I was using the dilution that the bottle recommended which is 1+3. Also I use a try washer with constantly flowing water. The stock bottle of fixer is less than a month and a half old.

From now on ill do a clip test before using to be safe. Thank you both for the replies.

 

[hoffy]

Hmmmm, the Stock solution of the fixer was only 1 1/2 months old? I would say that the fix was OK, based on the age, but I suppose that there is something else that could have caused it to go bad. I'm using Ilford Hypam fix and my current bottle of stock solution is over 18 months old and it still seems to be OK.

So, I assume that you have no fix left? Had you mixed the fix fresh, or were you using fix from before?

Based on the extra information, I'm not as convinced as before.

 

[MrBrowning]

Hmmmm, the Stock solution of the fixer was only 1 1/2 months old? I would say that the fix was OK, based on the age, but I suppose that there is something else that could have caused it to go bad. I'm using Ilford Hypam fix and my current bottle of stock solution is over 18 months old and it still seems to be OK.

So, I assume that you have no fix left? Had you mixed the fix fresh, or were you using fix from before?

Based on the extra information, I'm not as convinced as before.

I used the remainder of the stock solution to mix. I had a temporary setup since I'm moving and had to dump everything after I was done unfortunately. I have already ordered a new bottle. Maybe I let something contaminate it? I only made about 20 or so prints including test prints so I didn't exceede the capacity of the fixer.

 

[Pat Erson]

Halfway through an RC prints session I take one or two film clips I kept from a film processing session and I dump them in the fix tray. If they become transparent in a reasonable amount of time I consider my fixer not exhaused.

I would be much more scientifical with a session of FB prints though.

 

[nworth]

The usual cause is retained fixer, generally from an insufficient wash. If your water is cold or if you get less than one change a minute, you may need a longer washing time. Sometimes prints stick together of hover close to one another in the wash, which interferes with the agitation and washing. Use an archival washer or wash one at a time. Washing RC prints for up to 30 minutes (and probably longer) does no harm. It could conceivably be the water, Sometimes sulfides get int the water, and that can turn print brown.

 

[MrBrowning]

The usual cause is retained fixer, generally from an insufficient wash. If your water is cold or if you get less than one change a minute, you may need a longer washing time. Sometimes prints stick together of hover close to one another in the wash, which interferes with the agitation and washing. Use an archival washer or wash one at a time. Washing RC prints for up to 30 minutes (and probably longer) does no harm. It could conceivably be the water, Sometimes sulfides get int the water, and that can turn print brown.

FWIW here is the washer I use http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/43230-REG/Doran_PR1114P_Rapid_Jet_Print_Washer.html

Aside from doing the clip test I'll also increase my washing time a little to be safe. As I said I've made prints before with no trouble but I'd rather be safe than sorry. Thanks for the response.

 

[pentaxuser]

Has anyone else here had the experience of prints that are OK about 10-12 hours after the fixing/ washing process and then brown as little as 12 hours later? That is what has happened to the OP's prints. If fix has exhausted would it give this effect?

Unless his water suddenly became different to what it has been when doing previous prints then does it seem likely to be connected with water? Nothing wrong with his washing routine that I can see or his fix in terms of age. I presume that he had used this fix recently and anyway it's only a month and a half old

I am completely puzzled.

pentaxuser

 

[MrBrowning]

Has anyone else here had the experience of prints that are OK about 10-12 hours after the fixing/ washing process and then brown as little as 12 hours later? That is what has happened to the OP's prints. If fix has exhausted would it give this effect?

Unless his water suddenly became different to what it has been when doing previous prints then does it seem likely to be connected with water? Nothing wrong with his washing routine that I can see or his fix in terms of age. I presume that he had used this fix recently and anyway it's only a month and a half old

I am completely puzzled.

pentaxuser

Yes I used the fixer when I opened it the middle of last month with no problems. That's why I decided to ask here what the cause could have been. I keep a notebook with processing instructions and I read it before every session to make sure I don't confuses times or dilutions. The only thing I can think of is (a) the fix went bad somehow, (b) it got contaminated with something, though I don't know what, (c) I messed up the dilution. I highly doubt it was c because the dilution is easy to make as 1 liter and I hope I'm not that foolish.

Oh and the browning is mainly on the print boarders not in the print itself.

 

[pentaxuser]

Oh and the browning is mainly on the print boarders not in the print itself.

That extra piece of info might help to solve the problem although I can't offer an explanation as to what might affect the boarders and not the print.

I'd try the same process again and see if the problem is replicated. I suppose there might have been a sudden change in the water for those few moments you were processing which has now gone. If the same process is OK now then it suggests a sudden water change. Is your water subject to such changes?

Nobody else in the house see any change in appearance or notice change in taste of water?

pentaxuser

 

[Prof_Pixel]

Oh and the browning is mainly on the print boarders not in the print itself.

I suspect it can also be seen in dmin areas of the print as well as the borders.

It certainly sounds like poor fixing to me.

 

[MrBrowning]

I'm at my camp this weekend and posting from my iPhone. I have to run home either tonight or tomorrow morning and will post a scan of one of the prints. The browning is only in the boarder with the exception of one print and that one has a brown spot near the top. The highlights are nice and white and I can't find any other discoloration in the prints.

 

[cliveh]

It could have something to do with your name.

 

[pentaxuser]

Here's a thought. What if you somehow had a trace of fixer on your fingers after you had washed the print and then picked it up. I have no idea if fixer from fingers on a washed or washed and dried print would go brown but if it does and is nearer the edge of the print with the middle being fine then this might explain it.

pentaxuser

 

[MrBrowning]

It could have something to do with your name.

Thinking about it, it seems like the most likely cause. I guess I should change my last time to prevent it from happening in the future.

Here's a thought. What if you somehow had a trace of fixer on your fingers after you had washed the print and then picked it up. I have no idea if fixer from fingers on a washed or washed and dried print would go brown but if it does and is nearer the edge of the print with the middle being fine then this might explain it.

pentaxuser

I could see that if it was just in a spot or two but this is along the whole edge. I've attached a test print I did that shows it. I know the print isn't the best but I was trying to print a difficult negative. I finally got it but this one illustrates the problem better.



You can see it along the whole bottom edge along with other places.

 

[cliveh]

I think it adds a certain charm, the mark of the maker. Look at the work of Josef Sudek.

 

[Mr Bill]

The browning is only in the boarder with the exception of one print and that one has a brown spot near the top. The highlights are nice and white and I can't find any other discoloration in the prints.

Hi, I wonder if you're not agitating enough in the fixer, and the discolored borders are a result of the sides curling up slightly, so that they are nearly out of the fixer?

In a way, it's probably good to have gotten this "wake-up call" so early, rather than 2 or 3 years down the road. I think this is the sort of thing that teaches people to be more conservative with their processing habits.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Bad fixer and/or incomplete wash.

What he said. At least they are prints which can be redone. Negatives, not so much.

 

[MattKing]

One further possibility.

RC paper is subject to delamination around the edges if you are particularly rough with it and/or you over-wash it.

 

[MrBrowning]

I think it adds a certain charm, the mark of the maker. Look at the work of Josef Sudek.

I just googled his work and was really struck by it. I'll have to take some time and really look at more when I get home next week. Thank you.

Hi, I wonder if you're not agitating enough in the fixer, and the discolored borders are a result of the sides curling up slightly, so that they are nearly out of the fixer?

In a way, it's probably good to have gotten this "wake-up call" so early, rather than 2 or 3 years down the road. I think this is the sort of thing that teaches people to be more conservative with their processing habits.

This is a possibility I hadn't thought of and I'll be more cautious in the future to watch for it. I agree about finding out quickly rather than 2 or 3 years later. I printed my print for the current BPX and it happened to that one too. I'm very happy I didn't send it out and have the recipient get it and then have it happen.

What he said. At least they are prints which can be redone. Negatives, not so much.

Agreed.

One further possibility.

RC paper is subject to delamination around the edges if you are particularly rough with it and/or you over-wash it.

I didn't know that. When you say over washing it are you talking about something like a 10 minute wash or really extended wash times, say like 30 minutes?

 

[MattKing]

Re: over-washing
Even 30 minutes probably isn't enough to always seriously damage RC prints. Check the corners and edges of your prints - if they are frayed and appear to have separated into layers, then water and chemicals can go where they are not supposed to be.

 

[MrBrowning]

Re: over-washing
Even 30 minutes probably isn't enough to always seriously damage RC prints. Check the corners and edges of your prints - if they are frayed and appear to have separated into layers, then water and chemicals can go where they are not supposed to be.

That's good to know. One more thing I'll watch for from now on. Thanks.

 

[nworth]

FWIW here is the washer I use http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/43230-REG/Doran_PR1114P_Rapid_Jet_Print_Washer.html

Aside from doing the clip test I'll also increase my washing time a little to be safe. As I said I've made prints before with no trouble but I'd rather be safe than sorry. Thanks for the response.

I have one of those washers. They are handy and useful, and I use mine much of the time. But they are a bit less effective than advertised. They do about one water change every two minutes, but in actual use, not all the water changes over in that time. I've found a 5 minute wash time is usually, but not always, adequate. For best results, go for near 15 minutes (10 would probably do). These washers are best for one sheet at a time, although you can do two if you watch them and keep them separated. Remember that when you add a new sheet, it contaminates the water and your wash timing starts over. To shorten the wash time, rinse the print thoroughly, front and back under running water before you put it in the washer.