Printing with Formulary

[MattKing]

Note, however, that running water is what you need for a water stop. A tray of still water quickly becomes a problem.
Also note that if you don't mind replacing it more frequently, stop bath can be used at a more dilute concentration (= less odour) if the regular concentration bothers you.
Half strength seems to work well.

 

[lantau]

I use commercial stop bath for paper, because it has indicator already in it. It's acetic acid based and I can't smell any vinegar. But acid baths do dissolve some sulfides from plastic. So I get a little of that when I pour the working solution out from its container.

Also I actually enjoy the smell of vinegar and ammonia.

I understand your need to conserve space. I can only fit three trays on my darkroom table. The Sistan tray is on the floor as I only need it for the final prints. But I'd like to do two tray fixing when I occasionally use fb paper. That's a problem. Maybe I should try and find a dip tank like vessel for the stop bath to save space.

 

[tezzasmall]

I’m planning on using water for my stop bath for RC paper...? Also do I need to use distilled water? And does it need to be filtering? Or can I use tap water with a Kodak tray pump?

These questions seem to have been left unanswered, which I shall reply to in a mo. My answers are written with the assumption that your mind hasn't been changed over the use of a stop bath yet?

Tap water is fine to use as a regularly replenished stop bath for both film and paper. I say that with the assumption that is is not really grungy or from a well etc with obvious impurities in it.

It doesn't have to be filtered but I do put my tap water through a Paterson funnel filter. This is to be on the safe side to catch the occasional tiny impurities in my water. I do this for film developing but not for prints.

'With a tray pump?' I'm not quite sure what you mean by that but if you have enough room for some form of pump and inlet and outlet hoses between your trays, then you definitely have room for one more tray to put stop bath in - it really is worth it.

As said, stop bath is really cheap in the long run, but if you are affected by the vinegar odour, there is a citric acid based one that has no smell. Again this can be bought quite cheaply or you can make your own using, I believe, one teaspoon of shop bought citric acid (it's easily obtainable in brewing shops, chemists and on ebay) to one litre of water.

It would be good to hear how you get on with your first goes in both the film and paper developing.

Terry S

PS just reading the PDF you put in one of your links, about the fixer, it doesn't say not to use a stop bath, it gives you the option of using water or an acid stop bath.

I'm not sure why, but they also suggest using distilled water to make up the working solution of the fixer. I have never done this and have found over the many years of developing etc that this is any unnecessary step unless like I said, that your tap water is a bit grungy. So I think they may be erring on the safe side, but maybe someone else on this site can chip in with any good reason why?

 

[rpavich]

If 1 ml diluted to 100 ml is 1% then 28% diluted to 1 liter is 2.8%

Yes, a real acidic stop is recommended for paper. Size does matter!

You have non-uniformity problems with paper, and can get it with TF4 or TF5, whichever you use, due to the carryover of developer. The longer you use plain water, the more like your developer it becomes. Use acid stop at about 1.4% or white Vinegar diluted.

PE

PE, you caused me to go back and figure out what I was doing. I had misread the directions for making stop from Glacial Acetic acid. It wasn't 28mls...it was supposed to be 280ml's per liter! That's where I got the 28%. I was mixing it waaaaaayyyy too weak using 28ml's.

Boy does that change the savings I claimed!!
Kodak Indicator stop bath is actually cheaper in the long run.

 

[Photo Engineer]

It is very difficult to stop development evenly over a sheet of 8x10 or larger paper or RC print. Therefore, you may see nonuniformity. That is why a stop is suggested.

As the guy who did the R&D for TF5 and Liquidol, I KNOW this to be true. I have even seen it on smaller prints.

PE

 

[Patrick Robert James]

Quite a few people here use Citric Acid as a stop bath. Usually it is convenient to get, or you can buy pounds of it for cheap on Ebay. If you want to find it locally, usually health food stores sell it in bulk, although it is cheaper to get it on the interwebs. Citric acid has the advantage of not smelling like vinegar....

Hope that helps you.

 

[Photo Engineer]

It has the disadvantage of going bad quickly due to bacterial and fungal growth.

For best results, do not store the solution. Mix it and use it, then discard it.

PE

 

[Thomas Satalino]

These questions seem to have been left unanswered, which I shall reply to in a mo. My answers are written with the assumption that your mind hasn't been changed over the use of a stop bath yet?

Tap water is fine to use as a regularly replenished stop bath for both film and paper. I say that with the assumption that is is not really grungy or from a well etc with obvious impurities in it.

It doesn't have to be filtered but I do put my tap water through a Paterson funnel filter. This is to be on the safe side to catch the occasional tiny impurities in my water. I do this for film developing but not for prints.

'With a tray pump?' I'm not quite sure what you mean by that but if you have enough room for some form of pump and inlet and outlet hoses between your trays, then you definitely have room for one more tray to put stop bath in - it really is worth it.

As said, stop bath is really cheap in the long run, but if you are affected by the vinegar odour, there is a citric acid based one that has no smell. Again this can be bought quite cheaply or you can make your own using, I believe, one teaspoon of shop bought citric acid (it's easily obtainable in brewing shops, chemists and on ebay) to one litre of water.

It would be good to hear how you get on with your first goes in both the film and paper developing.

Terry S

PS just reading the PDF you put in one of your links, about the fixer, it doesn't say not to use a stop bath, it gives you the option of using water or an acid stop bath.

I'm not sure why, but they also suggest using distilled water to make up the working solution of the fixer. I have never done this and have found over the many years of developing etc that this is any unnecessary step unless like I said, that your tap water is a bit grungy. So I think they may be erring on the safe side, but maybe someone else on this site can chip in with any good reason why?

I just finished my first go-around with this system. I used liquid for about 1:30, then moved the print from the tub to the sink which has a tray in it with a little pump that sucks water out of the bottom of the tank while at the same time puts fresh water in it (its tiny) Let it sit in there for about 30 seconds to a minute, then stuck the print in the Formulary fixer bath. The prints look nice, aside from them being a little out of focus (I don't have a grain focuser). There is a strange copper/orange/yellow stain on the edges of a couple of the prints where there is nothing but white paper, but it doesn't seem to be effecting the area where the exposure is?.... its weird.....

 

[Thomas Satalino]

It is very difficult to stop development evenly over a sheet of 8x10 or larger paper or RC print. Therefore, you may see nonuniformity. That is why a stop is suggested.

As the guy who did the R&D for TF5 and Liquidol, I KNOW this to be true. I have even seen it on smaller prints.

PE

yes there were a few prints that had a bit of non uniformity to them, but that was solved by using a running water tray for the stop.

 

[Photo Engineer]

That copper/orange/yellow stain may be due to not using a stop or incomplete fixing or incomplete washing.

PE

 

[Anon Ymous]

yes there were a few prints that had a bit of non uniformity to them, but that was solved by using a running water tray for the stop.

If you notice non uniformity, then chances are that your development time is short. Given adequate time in the developer, few seconds more development in part of the print will go unnoticed. There's very little development happening anyway at that point. This is actually a very common beginner's mistake. The print is usually exposed for too long and it is snatched too early, before it gets too dark. Regardless of that, I'd say use some kind of stop bath. A citric acid based one is odorless, so it shouldn't be irritating.

I've had the orange tint happen to me once and it was a result of an overworked fixer in a public darkroom. If yours is fresh, then perhaps you don't fix long enough.

BTW, if you don't have a grain focuser, then you can try writing something with a fine marker on a piece of clear film (leader) and use that to focus your enlarger.. This should get you very close, if not dead on.

 

[Thomas Satalino]

That copper/orange/yellow stain may be due to not using a stop or incomplete fixing or incomplete washing.

PE

Hmmm what times would you suggest for developing, washing (with flowing water), and fixing using this setup I’ve gone with?

 

[Thomas Satalino]

If you notice non uniformity, then chances are that your development time is short. Given adequate time in the developer, few seconds more development in part of the print will go unnoticed. There's very little development happening anyway at that point. This is actually a very common beginner's mistake. The print is usually exposed for too long and it is snatched too early, before it gets too dark. Regardless of that, I'd say use some kind of stop bath. A citric acid based one is odorless, so it shouldn't be irritating.

I've had the orange tint happen to me once and it was a result of an overworked fixer in a public darkroom. If yours is fresh, then perhaps you don't fix long enough.

BTW, if you don't have a grain focuser, then you can try writing something with a fine marker on a piece of clear film (leader) and use that to focus your enlarger.. This should get you very close, if not dead on.

Hmmmm I’m hearing a lot of people saying just use a stop bath. Okay, next questiom.... suggestions for citric acid stop bath?

 

[Anon Ymous]

Hmmmm I’m hearing a lot of people saying just use a stop bath. Okay, next questiom.... suggestions for citric acid stop bath?

A spoonful of citric acid in 1l of water is about right, as someone else mentioned previously. Keep in mind though what Photo Engineer said above and dump it after a session.

 

[MattKing]

A spoonful of citric acid in 1l of water is about right, as someone else mentioned previously. Keep in mind though what Photo Engineer said above and dump it after a session.

What size spoon? I mix 2 litres at a time.
I have a bag of citric acid (from a beer u-brew) that is just waiting to be tried out!
I plan to dump it and replace with fresh after every twenty 8x10 prints, but that might be too conservative.
And for the OP:
1) using stop bath extends the functionality and life of your fixer; and
2) if you don't have a grain focuser, a pair of higher power reading glasses serve well as a hands free magnifier - just look at the image on the easel. If you have a decent lens, you can focus wide open and then stop down to your working aperture for the actual print.

 

[Anon Ymous]

What size spoon? I mix 2 litres at a time.

Heaping teaspoon should be about right, so two of these in your case. On the other hand, if you have even a basic scale, then 15-20g/l is ok. I don't know about the capacity, but 20 8x10 sound too little. If a pinch of baking soda fizzes when added to the stop bath, it's still acidic.

 

[MattKing]

Heaping teaspoon should be about right, so two of these in your case. On the other hand, if you have even a basic scale, then 15-20g/l is ok. I don't know about the capacity, but 20 8x10 sound too little. If a pinch of baking soda fizzes when added to the stop bath, it's still acidic.

Thanks - I do have a postal scale so I might try that.
And I guess I could always use the "between thumb and forefinger slipperiness trick" for acidity

 

[Photo Engineer]

Oh, a teaspoon is exact, but it differs from country to country.

Use weights!

I use 1 min developent, 30 seconds stop and 1 minute or more fix depending on paper. This is by test solution. I wash one minute or omre determined by test and it all varies with paper.

PE

 

[Anon Ymous]

Oh, a teaspoon is exact, but it differs from country to country.

Use weights!

I do! I agree with what you say, but think that a teaspoon in this case is close enough, since it's a stop bath. Had it been a developer for example, I wouldn't even think of using teaspoons.

 

[Thomas Satalino]

Here we go: three good ones I came out with

 

[rpavich]

Here we go: three good ones I came out with

They look a bit light

 

[Thomas Satalino]

They look a bit light

 

[Thomas Satalino]

I decided also to divide my tf-4 into two different 64 OZ bottles. If I kept the ratio of the solution the same, but instead of making a gallon, I made 2 64oz bottles.... is that going to effect the fixer in any way?

 

[rpavich]

I decided also to divide my tf-4 into two different 64 OZ bottles. If I kept the ratio of the solution the same, but instead of making a gallon, I made 2 64oz bottles.... is that going to effect the fixer in any way?

Not a bit.

 

[Thomas Satalino]

Not a bit.

SWEET! I was thinking of using one bottle for prints and one bottle for film.