Price trends and items you're looking for

[AndyH]

On another thread there was a discussion of a few overpriced items seen recently on dealer or auction sites, and a lot of strong opinions were expressed. We user-collectors are now competing with Millennials who are attracted to the medium and entering their peak earning years, as well as with dilettantes and collectors buying up gear to decorate their shelves with. The great film equipment glut of the first decade of the new millennium is over, and we're having to shop carefully, snipe auctions, and buy "project" camera gear or gear with significant cosmetic defects which detract from value significantly but don't affect use. We're also investing in models in need of repair at prices that would have commanded a recently CLA'd model just a few years back.

I own and use a decent collection of gear in Hasselblad, Rolleiflex, Pentax M42, Barnack Leica, Retina, and a couple of others. I've recently begun rebuilding the Nikon F system I had in the 1970s. I still need a few items to complete my Hasselblad and Rolleiflex outfits, and lust after a couple of the less common Takumar or Super Takumar lenses, but I'd like to beat the trends while I still can. Like many of us, my interests lie primarily in the pre-electronic era. If I want LEDs and motor drives, I'll stick with my digital outfit.

I'm thinking that several items are still affordable but about to skyrocket out of the range of amateur users and non-collectors. Nikon rangefinders already seem to be headed in this direction, but I still see bargains in Canon rangefinder bodies and LTM Japanese and Russian lenses. I was thinking about buying a bargain early Bronica and a couple of lenses. There are also a plethora of bargain folders with great optics and solid, serviceable shutters and bodies. I have seen some old view camera brands at bargain prices, although Arca and its wannabes are now getting unaffordable.

I thought it would be fun to see what other user collectors are acquiring these days before the hipsters discover them and the prices go sky high. What are you buying or thinking of buying with a plan to use? What mechanical camera systems, unrecognized folders, under appreciated large format, and unrecognized lenses are you looking at?

Andy

 

[BrianShaw]

I can see no indication of competition with millennials, but I’ve been buying accessories for my Retinas. Arriving today: close-up kit. In use today (bought a long time ago but not used): Longar telephoto lens. And I’m getting good deals not because I’m buying today but because I’ve been carefully watching the market, know what I’m buying, and act fast when I see a good deal.

 

[AndyH]

I can see no indication of competition with millennials, but I’ve been buying accessories for my Retinas. Arriving today: close-up kit. In use today (bought a long time ago but not used): Longar telephoto lens.

I already acquire most of my Retina needs, but I'd love the f3.5 wide angle Schneider (I only have the 5.6).

If you don't believe the Millennial generation is a big factor in the price trends, search for analog photography on YouTube or Instagram. There are thousands or new contributions and the vast majority of content providers seem to be under 30. I subscribe to a bunch of them myself, and though occasionally naïve or uninformed, they have good ideas and make some dang nice photos.

Andy

 

[BrianShaw]

You mean the f/4? I have both Curtars. Bought years ago but never used. They are up next!

Re: millennials... I pay attention YouTube and know what you are talking about. It’s very nice to see younger folks get interested in older gear and old technology. Makes me feel less nerdy. I’m just not seeing it drive prices up in what I watch. You might be right, though.

 

[AndyH]

You mean the f/4? I have both Curtars. Bought years ago but never used. They are up next!

Re: millennials... I pay attention YouTube and know what you are talking about. It’s very nice to see younger folks get interested in older gear and old technology. Makes me feel less nerdy. I’m just not seeing it drive prices up in what I watch. You might be right, though.

Yes, the f4 Curtar. I get great results from the 5.6, but I'd like an extra stop. Thank goodness maximum f stop doesn't affect viewing on a rangefinder.

I think it's just because I see so many videos and posts from younger people on social media lauding their latest purchases and sharing their "discovery" that you can get a metered prism for a 500C (Who knew?)! The particular items that seemed to be available at relatively bargain prices a couple of years ago but are now out of my range include Hasselblads, Mamiya and Fuji rangefinder medium format, anything Contax, Pentax 67 and 6x7, early Leica M series bodies. The Mamiya RB and RZ series are also zooming in price recently.

Search YouTube, and I think you'll find that those are some of the cameras most commonly seen in the hands of the younger enthusiasts. The same seems to be the case for compact point and shoot models from Olympus and Minolta, as well as a few others that have gotten trendy. If I'm seeing them starring on YouTube and skyrocketing on "the bay", I can't help putting two and two together.

Andy

 

[Sirius Glass]

On another thread there was a discussion of a few overpriced items seen recently on dealer or auction sites, and a lot of strong opinions were expressed. We user-collectors are now competing with Millennials who are attracted to the medium and entering their peak earning years, as well as with dilettantes and collectors buying up gear to decorate their shelves with. The great film equipment glut of the first decade of the new millennium is over, and we're having to shop carefully, snipe auctions, and buy "project" camera gear or gear with significant cosmetic defects which detract from value significantly but don't affect use. We're also investing in models in need of repair at prices that would have commanded a recently CLA'd model just a few years back.

I own and use a decent collection of gear in Hasselblad, Rolleiflex, Pentax M42, Barnack Leica, Retina, and a couple of others. I've recently begun rebuilding the Nikon F system I had in the 1970s. I still need a few items to complete my Hasselblad and Rolleiflex outfits, and lust after a couple of the less common Takumar or Super Takumar lenses, but I'd like to beat the trends while I still can. Like many of us, my interests lie primarily in the pre-electronic era. If I want LEDs and motor drives, I'll stick with my digital outfit.

I'm thinking that several items are still affordable but about to skyrocket out of the range of amateur users and non-collectors. Nikon rangefinders already seem to be headed in this direction, but I still see bargains in Canon rangefinder bodies and LTM Japanese and Russian lenses. I was thinking about buying a bargain early Bronica and a couple of lenses. There are also a plethora of bargain folders with great optics and solid, serviceable shutters and bodies. I have seen some old view camera brands at bargain prices, although Arca and its wannabes are now getting unaffordable.

I thought it would be fun to see what other user collectors are acquiring these days before the hipsters discover them and the prices go sky high. What are you buying or thinking of buying with a plan to use? What mechanical camera systems, unrecognized folders, under appreciated large format, and unrecognized lenses are you looking at?

Andy

The solution is easy: Just do not let dilettantes and collectors and hoarders buy camera equipment.

 

[AndyH]

The solution is easy: Just do not let dilettantes and collectors and hoarders buy camera equipment.

Hmmmm… kinky. I like that.

I think I'd pass the test. I wonder whether we could get it passed under the COVID-19 emergency?

Andy

 

[awty]

Your just late to the party, not too long ago people would happily give you there old equipment.....but there are still a few bargains come by if you a quick and are patient.
Most old rangies will need a service and once you factor that into the price, you are often better off saving up and paying for one that has been serviced.
I have a few Canons, Kievs and zorkies, none are as good as a Leica. If you want a good quality camera you need to expect to pay for it, if you are happy with something that doesnt function quite as well then there still some bargains come up if you are quick.

 

[BrianShaw]

if you a quick and are patient.

Oxymoronic but true!

 

[thuggins]

We user-collectors are now competing with Millennials who are attracted to the medium and entering their peak earning years, as well as with dilettantes and collectors buying up gear to decorate their shelves with.

Back in December I took a wet plate workshop at the Dallas Center for Photography. In talking with the owner I recommended that they do an E-6 class. His response was classic. The hipsters are interested in learning these things, but they don't have any money. He then pointed out that they had a hard time filling the wet plate class.

I think a lot of the prices we're seeing are from folks who really want their gear to be worth more than it is. Every time I see a Bessa with an Apo Lanthar going for 10,000 bucks it makes me sad. A camera that could find love and a caring home, get to go to the zoo and visit our national parks, will languish in some back room. When the overly optimistic owner dies his heirs will probably sell off the whole inventory to KEH for $300.

 

[BrianShaw]

Asking prices are all over the place. Some bargains, some reasonable, and some just ridiculous. But they are just somebody’s request. What really counts are the price things actually sell for. I watch those as much as I watch the asking prices. It puts things into a much more sane understanding.

as for the camera... inanimate objects with no feelings.

 

[Dan Fromm]

The solution is easy: Just do not let dilettantes and collectors and hoarders buy camera equipment.

Eh? Wot? And how, pray, do you propose to make this happen?

 

[Sirius Glass]

Your just late to the party, not too long ago people would happily give you there old equipment.....but there are still a few bargains come by if you a quick and are patient.
Most old rangies will need a service and once you factor that into the price, you are often better off saving up and paying for one that has been serviced.
I have a few Canons, Kievs and zorkies, none are as good as a Leica. If you want a good quality camera you need to expect to pay for it, if you are happy with something that doesnt function quite as well then there still some bargains come up if you are quick.

Just a few years late.

 

[Sirius Glass]

The solution is easy: Just do not let dilettantes and collectors and hoarders buy camera equipment.

Eh? Wot? And how, pray, do you propose to make this happen?

That is an implementation concern. Not my problem.

 

[AndyH]

Asking prices are all over the place. Some bargains, some reasonable, and some just ridiculous. But they are just somebody’s request. What really counts are the price things actually sell for. I watch those as much as I watch the asking prices. It puts things into a much more sane understanding.

as for the camera... inanimate objects with no feelings.

I watch both, and both are trending up a little too fast for my taste.

I still haven't gotten any ideas on "The Next Big Thing". What are you all targeting or don't you want to share?

Andy

 

[reddesert]

There were always collectors. Apo Lanthars and similar cult items were always expensive. Nikon rangefinders have been a collector's market since the heyday of film. Just look at all the old pages on Stephen Gandy's Cameraquest website devoted to Nikons and oddball variants thereof. Maybe they are less or more expensive than in the 1990s, I don't know; anyone who buys photo equipment as an investment is not making good decisions. (Buying vintage photos by well known artists would have been a better investment. Plus one would have some art to look at.)

What has changed, perhaps, is that ten years ago, former professional film equipment (for ex, medium format SLRs, or high end 35mm film bodies) got sold off for pennies on the dollar, and now it's rebounded to sell for dimes on the dollar compared to what it originally cost.

Older photo enthusiasts want young people to be interested in film to keep the film manufacturers afloat, but for gods sake don't actually buy film cameras and drive the price up!

 

[AndyH]

There were always collectors. Apo Lanthars and similar cult items were always expensive. Nikon rangefinders have been a collector's market since the heyday of film. Just look at all the old pages on Stephen Gandy's Cameraquest website devoted to Nikons and oddball variants thereof. Maybe they are less or more expensive than in the 1990s, I don't know; anyone who buys photo equipment as an investment is not making good decisions. (Buying vintage photos by well known artists would have been a better investment. Plus one would have some art to look at.)

What has changed, perhaps, is that ten years ago, former professional film equipment (for ex, medium format SLRs, or high end 35mm film bodies) got sold off for pennies on the dollar, and now it's rebounded to sell for dimes on the dollar compared to what it originally cost.

Older photo enthusiasts want young people to be interested in film to keep the film manufacturers afloat, but for gods sake don't actually buy film cameras and drive the price up!

Yes, there have always been collectors, but the combination of collectors and a whole new generation of user-collectors is what's driving prices up. I can't complain, I've got full or nearly full outfits in all my favorites from the past. And I'm not complaining about the young'uns. I'd much rather see them go to homes where they'll be both used and treasured as valued possessions. The investor-collectors are the ones that bother me. As you said, they'd be better off investing in vintage prints (or perhaps gold?) anyway, and I don't think they have the intrinsic love of these vintage tools - especially when you see disconnects like the Apo Lanthars where value is not determined by the quality of work produced as much by the rarity of an item that was originally a luxury product. I see the same trends in my other collectible item, fountain pens, where "uninked" pens command a value that is prohibitive for any buyers who actually want to use them. An "uninked" Mont Blanc special edition is worth more than a Rollei 35 Royal commemorative that has never had a roll of film run through it.

That whole scene is not for me. I want cameras to use to make images, and I'd like to get some of my grail cameras before they hit the stratosphere. I'm thinking the Bronica S system will be the next marque that I soon won't be able to afford. Vintage cameras have some strange market quirks - who would imagine that Nikon F models with a plain prism finder would outpace those with Photomic prisms? I mean, if the meter is dead, you can use a Photomic as easily as a plain F prism with a handheld meter?

So what are you targeting?

Andy

 

[BrianShaw]

I can't complain, I've got full or nearly full outfits in all my favorites from the past.

me too, Andy. All I care about now are accessories to make the experience a broader experience!

 

[AndyH]

me too, Andy. All I care about now are accessories to make the experience a broader experience!

Agreed!

My missing pieces are a spirit level and quick release plate for my Hasselblad (although I wouldn't turn down a 40mm WA at a good price). I wouldn't mind a Pentax 20 or 24mm Takumar or Super. One of these days I'll buy a Rolleikin just for fun. And I'm just starting on Nikon F kit. My lens goals are the 28 and 35 WAs, a PC version, the 85, 105, and 200 mm telephotos. No need for motor drives and 250 shot backs, that's where digital has taken its spot.

I'm thinking about other wonderful systems that I've missed out on. Canon and/or Nikon 35mm rangefinders. Bronica S, and maybe a couple of one lens folders. I really do think it's time to buy or give up permanently on ever owning one. I'm generally not interested in any of the Russian or Chinese cameras, although I do buy Russian LTM glass. Still looking for nominations for unheralded cameras or systems that are likely to be discovered soon. My only regret to date is not getting an M-2 or M-3 when they were relatively cheap and missing out on the whole Pentax 6x7 boom. I literally never sell my equipment unless I really don't care for it, so if I don't get it soon, it's unlikely I ever will. That was kind of the point of this post.

Andy

 

[BrianShaw]

Just arrived:

 

[Dan Fromm]

That is an implementation concern. Not my problem.

All talk, no do.

 

[AndyH]

I've also been watching recent developments in the film camera market. The tastes of Gen Z are exerting pressures now, not just Millenials like me. They are most interested in ease of use and prestige, so something that doesn't have a meter, takes too much work and is too intimidating to use, or isn't beautifully designed will be avoided. Funnily enough, they basically favor the same stuff that older generations have prized. There is a pretty stable canon of "the best cameras" that leaves out many kinds of classic cameras.

Here's a list of some less popular camera types (ignore the truly rare collectibles):

- Plastic fantastic 35mm SLRs from the '80s to '00s (except some Contaxes and the Nikon F100 and such)
- 35mm SLRs w/o meters, pre-1960s
- Vintage folders
- 35mm fixed lens compacts (rigid or folding, scale focus or rangefinder) [Side note: ATM, the Kodak Medalist is the only popular fixed lens, 1940s-era camera I'm aware of.]
- Soviet cameras (except the Pentacon Six TL, whose reputation for poor reliability keeps prices supressed)
- Most TLRs (except the later Rolleis and Mamiyas, Yashicamat 124-G, Minolta Autocord III...)
- Screwmount Leicas and Leica copies (except maybe the Canon P)
- Classic Contax rangefinders
- Point & shoots with a zoom
- APS cameras
- Box cameras
- Stereo cameras
- Plate cameras, drop/falling plate cameras, jumelle cameras
- Monorail and tailboard view cameras
- Folding technical cameras, large and medium format

I'm done picking up cameras to use (except for digital), but I wouldn't mind some shelf queens like a Contax IIa, Pentacon Six TL, Graflex RB something or another 3 1/4 x 4 1/4, drop plate camera, or stereo jumelle. Also, I'm open to any suggestions for a fixed lens 35mm compact (rigid lens or folder) like an Agfa Isolette or Voigtländer Vitomatic. They're just not my thing, so I should probably give them a try.

Interesting ideas. I think you've caught a lot of the trends here, and you're right that Gen Z is now leading this charge.

Some ideas, in addition to the Vitomatic / Vitessa and Agfa models, which are already ascending the price ladder. I'd check out the early Minolta, Olympus, and Konica 35mm rangefinders, and their MF folders as well. In the latter format the Konica Pearl is a, well, pearl, and the Minolta Semi is as tough as an 18 wheeler. But I have to say that the Retina series constitutes the best compromise between current pricing and quality of any line.

Keep those ideas coming, folks. Surely the small number of Photrio/APUG devotees following these trends won't affect the market much...

Andy

 

[AndyH]

Just arrived:

View attachment 244525

View attachment 244526

Great stuff! I've never particularly sought out Retina close up gear, but this makes me a little envious. <3

Andy

 

[ic-racer]

Currently looking for Hy6 or 6008AF. Mostly for the autofocus.

 

[Ariston]

Because of this trend, I have a hard time not picking up a bargain, even if I don't need it. I just passed on a $40 Nikon FM. I love that camera, but I don't need another one. I just don't know when I will see another camera that good at a price that low again.

The struggle is real.