Preserving History

[Anscojohn]

I would be interested in seeing the uploads. As an historian with interest in military history, and also a collector of vintage military firearms, I might be able to help with establish a time frame.

 

[Kino]

Ok, now I find this thread....

Contact the NFSA as Iandavid said; best resource to get positive ID and best treatment. Ask for Mick Newman.



Look at the edge film; what edge codes are on the film? http://www.sabucat.com/?pg=datecodechart

Look *CLOSELY*, the printed in codes can bloom and a + can look like a box or a diamond or whatever. If there are two sets of codes, you can usually determine which belongs to the negative (should be clear) and which is the positive (dark) -- usually.

Nitrate was phased out in 1953, but could have been shot up until existing stocks ran out in the 1960's.

Wish I could examine them; I could probably tell you what they are.

I was the timer/grader for the Library of Congress in 1997 when we pritnted all the Warsaw Ghetto atrocity footage captured by the US Army during WWII.

nasty

 

[Stephen Frizza]

thanks so much for this code info

according to that table and the codes on these films they are from two dates

Rochester USA as the tins the film are also indicating (double circle 1939)
and the second lot (circle Square 1942)

there is also at oddly spaced intervals an upside down letter T on the film usually occurring before the word NITRATE

 

[Kino]

A "T"? Interesting.

Nitrate had frameline markers that went horizontally between the perfs ever 4 frames and safety had frameline markers that went vertically between the perfs ever 4 frames, but I've never seen them overprint to form a T...

You also may have mixed safety and nitrate -- safety has been around since the early 1910's in motion pictures, but the predominant base was Nitrate -- it was a lot more durable for distribution until triacetate was formulated in the late 40's.

Anyway,a half a World away, all I can do is say, keep it dry, keep it cool and get it to the archive!

 

[PHOTOTONE]

There was a slow-burning film stock made from the late 1920's on up, designed for use in schools, and institutions. It was not as dimensionally stable as Nitrate and was far inferior to the later Tri-acetate stock that became standard.

 

[Kino]

There was a slow-burning film stock made from the late 1920's on up, designed for use in schools, and institutions. It was not as dimensionally stable as Nitrate and was far inferior to the later Tri-acetate stock that became standard.

That was DiAcetate -- smells like mothballs. The early lenticular Kodachrome was on DiAcetate and a lot of 16mm was as well.

The stock was manufactured for those nifty ACME and DeVry suitcase projectors that did not require a fireproof booth if you used safety film.

28mm Pathe was DiAcetate too.

 

[cmacd123]

The short strip that was in the other thread was a PRINT by the looks of it.

The Archives are probably your best source of OZ info, as well as a place where the material may have its context. perhaps a historian may know something about the original negative.

Rusty can's are often a sign of deterioration with both safety and nitrate film, so well ventalated plastic cans would be called for, although the metal cans do provide context. even the leaders (if any ) might provide info. Are these on reels? or cores?

I have no idea of the OZ haz-mat rules but these probaly have to be only transported by Truck with Haz-Mat placards. again the archive folks may be able to help.

 

[Stephen Frizza]

most oddly they are not on reels or cores when you get to the end of the film it is the end of the film there is nothing they are attached to so before being played they would need to be attached to a core or a reel. Also the exposures on the films vary thought out the shooting and there has only been in camera editing no post editing.

 

[wogster]

The short strip that was in the other thread was a PRINT by the looks of it.

The Archives are probably your best source of OZ info, as well as a place where the material may have its context. perhaps a historian may know something about the original negative.

Rusty can's are often a sign of deterioration with both safety and nitrate film, so well ventalated plastic cans would be called for, although the metal cans do provide context. even the leaders (if any ) might provide info. Are these on reels? or cores?

I have no idea of the OZ haz-mat rules but these probaly have to be only transported by Truck with Haz-Mat placards. again the archive folks may be able to help.

I'm wondering about the idea of metal vs plastic cans for this stuff, a metal can is more likely to be able to contain a fire if it did occur, where as a plastic can would simply add more toxic fumes as the plastic melted or burned.

For shipping it would be considered a class 4.1 dangerous good ( a flammable solid ) A truck would need to be placarded providing their was a large enough amount, the size of that amount would be determined by law.

 

[cmacd123]

Other thoughts.

The print is probaly on what now would be 5302 fine grain release positive, in the nitrate era that would likly have been called 1302. The type would in most eras have been the first four digits of the emulsion number on the can label. If the number starts with something else the cans may not be original to the film (many of my 16mm films are in 400 ft negative cans, just because they are often avalable.)

The print film probaly would have been the least restricted stock in the war era as the civilian population was encouraged to visit the theatres regularly, if for no other reason as to see requests for war bond drives. Someone at a lab may have run an extra print off for themselves if they saw something "unusual" comming through. (The print film is also relatively cheep.)

The print may have also been made after the war on "war surplus stock" as the x302 is about 3 ASA, it probaly keeps for years even not refigerated.

It is common practice (at least before digital editing) to strike a print as a "workprint" from a negative which would both be shown to the cast of a dramatic production as well as the director. the same print is then used to cut together sceens by the film editor. once the production is edited, the negative is cut to match. To do that a "footage number" is placed on the negative at the factory. in WWII days this was done in ink. the numbers "print through" on the printer, and would appear on the "dark edge" that your thumnail shows at the top of your shot. the numbers are normally about every 18 inches apart (1 second) and the first charahcer indicates the type of film. the number would advance by one digit each time.

 

[cmacd123]

I'm wondering about the idea of metal vs plastic cans for this stuff, a metal can is more likely to be able to contain a fire if it did occur, where as a plastic can would simply add more toxic fumes as the plastic melted or burned.

If you do have natrate burning, a can is not going to stay closed for much more than the first second, after that the lid will be ten feet or more away from the base!

the plastic cans I was thinking of are the dancan ones that are made for long term storage. The issue is taht rusty Iron/steel is a catalyst for Acetate film breakdown, and so probaly would also not be good for Nitrate as we are dealing with simalar mechanisms.

Rusty cans are also the first sign of film breaking down.

dan Can is at http://www.dancan.dk/

 

[removed account4]

metal cans HEAT UP

if it only took a lightbulb and sheets of xray film to start
a fire in a hospital that killed 120+ people
i would imagine steady 80, 90, 100º F ( 27, 32, 38ºC ) heat and
metal cans isn't the best thing ...

 

[wogster]

If you do have natrate burning, a can is not going to stay closed for much more than the first second, after that the lid will be ten feet or more away from the base!

the plastic cans I was thinking of are the dancan ones that are made for long term storage. The issue is taht rusty Iron/steel is a catalyst for Acetate film breakdown, and so probaly would also not be good for Nitrate as we are dealing with simalar mechanisms.

Rusty cans are also the first sign of film breaking down.

dan Can is at http://www.dancan.dk/

I wonder if the best storage option would be to put the cans inside a freezer, would freezing help preserve the film some, or at least keep it from getting too warm.

 

[Oxleyroad]

Stephen,

Have you tried the National Film and Sound Archive in Canberra? You might find they'll take the films off you and give you a digital copy as payment for the film/s.

http://www.nfsa.gov.au

 

[Kino]

Metal or plastic, no matter. Just make sure they are NOT sealed tight and can breathe. If metal, they can be rusty on the outside, but not on the inside. Many of the cans we had were rusty on the outside, but the tin plating on the inside was still shiny after 50 to 100 years.

Don't stick it in the freezer; condensation and stress fractures could cause it to suddenly go into distress and start decomposing.

Keep it cool, relatively dry and in an area that gets good air circulation until you can get it to an archive.

BTW: every archive has their own custom house rules -- YMMV.

 

[PHOTOTONE]

35mm motion picture film of the vintage being discussed here runs at 90 feet per minute. I wonder how many minutes of footage the OP has? Common full lab cans of film stock were 1000 feet...giving a run time of just about 11 minutes.

 

[Stephen Frizza]

35mm motion picture film of the vintage being discussed here runs at 90 feet per minute. I wonder how many minutes of footage the OP has? Common full lab cans of film stock were 1000 feet...giving a run time of just about 11 minutes.

whats OP? i have 7 full cans.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

OP="original poster," you in this case.

 

[Stephen Frizza]

There is seven full cans of footage if could be viewed there would be over an hour of the stuff.
6 reels of the footage focus on deceased people who are killed in very violent ways. Each scene usually only has 150-160 frames before cutting to a new body etc...

 

[mike c]

Have you found out anything more about the when & where & why of the film Stephen.

mike c.

 

[Stephen Frizza]

Have you found out anything more about the when & where & why of the film Stephen.

mike c.

Hi mike yes I have this link will take you to a thread explaining what thew films are.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[Stephen Frizza]

Just to update everyone over the next few weeks I will be uploading images from the films to Flickr where they can be viewed. I Strongly warn that scenes in the film MAY BE DISTURBING TO SOME VIEWERS but those withing to view scenes within the films can do so at the link attached. I will be uploading more scenes when i get available time to do so.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/29279649@N02/