Pre-Wash

Robert Canis · Dec 4, 2020

I've read a lot about pre-wash and would like to give it a go but can't find anything regarding the actual process.
1. Tap water or de-ionised.
2. Length of time.
3. Agitation.
Greatly appreciate many of you may think it's unnecessary but equally there are those that do. I'd just like to try it for myself. Experimenting's always the best way, after all.

koraks · Dec 4, 2020

I've never found a pre-wash necessary, especially not with color.

Robert Canis · Dec 4, 2020

Sure. I'm shooting black and white and aside from just giving it a go I have been noticing tiny white pin-pricks (black on the print) and hair-like squiggles that must be occurring either at the time of capture or during development. I use de-ionised water for mixing the dev and fix (tap water for stop) so I'm wondering if there are dust/film shavings in the camera which I have thoroughly cleaned. My reckoning is that by using a pre-wash I wash off any dust or grit attaching itself to the film prior to development.

chris77 · Dec 4, 2020

Unnecessary imo..

Robert Canis · Dec 4, 2020

Not really what I am asking, but thank you, anyway.

koraks · Dec 4, 2020

Tap water should be fine; if you suspect yours, use demineralized/deionized. It's not very critical. One or two minutes would be ok, but it's not critical in the least and neither is agitation. A few swirls now and then should do.

I doubt it'll solve your issue, but it won't hurt to try.

Ps I thought it was about color because it's posted in the color section. No biggie.

Vaughn · Dec 4, 2020

Hi, Robert!

I use tap water...at or slightly above processing temperature (depending on room temp...which can get cold in my home). My tap water is close to neutral pH and not a high mineral content -- so yours might differ there.

Depending on the developing method;
SS tanks (hold two 120 reels) -- aggitate for 15 to 30 seconds...try to remember to do it a few times over the next 5 minutes while I prepare the developer...and enjoy the color as I pour the water out.
Jobo Expert Drums (sheet film) - constant aggatation (rotating) for the next 5 minutes while I prepare the developer...also get to enjoy the color as I pour it out.
Open trays -- five minutes occasional aggitation as I get use to standing in the dark. Sometimes skipped.

Deleted member 88956 · Dec 4, 2020

Is this Foma film? If so, there is a thread or two designated to white spots, can have some fun there.

I always pre-soak B&W film in tap water, but I do this mainly to get it wet, perhaps get some foreign small matter out of tank before development starts etc. I match water temp fairly closely to developer so no thermal shock can take place when dev goes in.

Robert Canis · Dec 4, 2020

koraks said:
Tap water should be fine; if you suspect yours, use demineralized/deionized. It's not very critical. One or two minutes would be ok, but it's not critical in the least and neither is agitation. A few swirls now and then should do.

I doubt it'll solve your issue, but it won't hurt to try.

Ps I thought it was about color because it's posted in the color section. No biggie.

Oops - sorry about that! It was real early here in the UK when I posted it!

Thank you so much for your input. As you say, it may not work but worth a try, anyway.

Robert Canis · Dec 4, 2020

Vaughn said:
Hi, Robert!

I use tap water...at or slightly above processing temperature (depending on room temp...which can get cold in my home). My tap water is close to neutral pH and not a high mineral content -- so yours might differ there.

Depending on the developing method;
SS tanks (hold two 120 reels) -- aggitate for 15 to 30 seconds...try to remember to do it a few times over the next 5 minutes while I prepare the developer...and enjoy the color as I pour the water out.
Jobo Expert Drums (sheet film) - constant aggatation (rotating) for the next 5 minutes while I prepare the developer...also get to enjoy the color as I pour it out.
Open trays -- five minutes occasional aggitation as I get use to standing in the dark. Sometimes skipped.

Thank you, Vaughn.

Robert Canis · Dec 4, 2020

Witold said:
Is this Foma film? If so, there is a thread or two designated to white spots, can have some fun there.

I always pre-soak B&W film in tap water, but I do this mainly to get it wet, perhaps get some foreign small matter out of tank before development starts etc. I match water temp fairly closely to developer so no thermal shock can take place when dev goes in.

No, FP4 and HP5. I'm hoping it'll get rid of any matter, too!

BrianShaw · Dec 4, 2020

Robert Canis said:
I'd just like to try it for myself. Experimenting's always the best way, after all.

Please do... and let us know what you concluded.

with those Ilford films I’ve never had even a hint that they needed pre-wash. I process them in Ilford chemistry per the instructions. I don’t recall precasting even mentioned as an optional process in the spec sheets and guides.

ruilourosa · Dec 4, 2020

Probably there are diferences between a pre washed negative and a non pre washed negative. I tryed with different developers and different films and different times and no visible difference.

I also tryed some perborate pre wash to, supposedly attain a 1/3 to 2/3 of speed, but with no visible gain besides a minimal gain in contrast (maybe because of the alcalinity of the perborate) but no shadow detail.

Being wet, the gelatin would, supposedly be more prone to "accept" the "wet" developer, that being said, it will also be soaked with water that could slow the inicial phase of the development as being substituted by gradually increasing more and more concentrated developer.

as i said i have not notest the tiniest diference in density, contrast, shadow detail or evenness...

Anon Ymous · Dec 4, 2020

Many years ago, I did a not exactly scientific test. I dipped half of a piece of film in water for few minutes and subsequently immersed ot all in some developer. The prewetted part started getting darker quicker, but didn't continue the test much longer to see how much of a difference it makes in the long run.

pentaxuser · Dec 4, 2020

Robert, from my reading of your question, I think it is about a pre-wash as a suitable method with which to wash away any foreign bodies that have settled on the film after exposure and while it is then moving into the take-up spool. If so then a pre-wash can certainly do no harm and may well eliminate such bodies after a a few vigorous inversions and dumps and may well cure the issue. If there are such bodies in the camera then it might be worthwhile to blow them out of the back of the camera and check that there is no obvious source for these bodies

I wish you success

pentaxuser

RalphLambrecht · Dec 4, 2020

Robert Canis said:
I've read a lot about pre-wash and would like to give it a go but can't find anything regarding the actual process.
1. Tap water or de-ionised.
2. Length of time.
3. Agitation.
Greatly appreciate many of you may think it's unnecessary but equally there are those that do. I'd just like to try it for myself. Experimenting's always the best way, after all.

Sure, give it a try but don't expect miracles. try tapwater for several minutes; not to short or you risk water spots. the real benefit of prewashing is to get film,tank and reel to processing temperature.other than that, I see it as a waste of time.

DeletedAcct1 · Dec 4, 2020

Robert Canis said:
I've read a lot about pre-wash and would like to give it a go but can't find anything regarding the actual process.
1. Tap water or de-ionised.
2. Length of time.
3. Agitation.
Greatly appreciate many of you may think it's unnecessary but equally there are those that do. I'd just like to try it for myself. Experimenting's always the best way, after all.

Pre-wash is generally not advisable with Ilford films, due to, I think, the presence of a wetting agent in the emulsion. Ilford films tend to foam in every developer. The wetting agent is used to promote uniformity in the development,
If you pre-wash the film you'll get rid also of the wetting agent.

David Allen · Dec 4, 2020

Hi there,

You didn’t mention what size of film that you are using. In general, I have observed with my students that tiny white pin-pricks tend to occur more often on roll film especially when the film has been wound on and then the camera was not used for some time (possibly dust settling over time when the camera is not being used). Back in the 1960s a German photographer (sorry it was too long ago for me to remember his name) wrote a book on achieving the highest quality with Leica cameras. His advice was to only wind the film on when you are ready to take the photograph. His argument was that the film was ‘protected’ in the cassette and moving it ‘fresh’ immediately prior to taking the picture reduced the risk of dust settling on the film. Whether this is true I do not know but I have always followed this advice (not winding on film until ready to make the photograph) and have never had any significant issues with tiny white pin-pricks irrespective of the format that I was using at the time.

On the more general theme of using a pre-wash/pre-soak, if you do a search on Photrio you will find thousands of comments for and against using a pre-wash/pre-soak. In fact, some of the exchanges have got really heated in the past!

I personally have always used a pre-soak irrespective of developer or film. I have also always taught my student to use a pre-soak and I have never had any issue with it causing any problem whatsoever. I know plenty of photographers who happily do not use a pre-soak. However, whenever someone comes to me with a problem with uneven processing (mostly with 35mm films) the introduction of a pre-soak has eliminated the problem every single time.

Another reason that I use a pre-soak is that, for my photography, I have been exclusively using a two-bath developer for more than 15 years. The reason being is that the two-bath developer is reused for 15 films and the pre-soak stops the Bath A from becoming very discoloured by the dyes that are now present in all modern films.

Finally, to your original questions:

Tap water is fine for a pre-soak but, depending upon your local water supply, you may have to filter it to remove any impurities in the water
You should pre-soak a film for at least two minutes
The agitation that you use should reflect the agitation that you use for development. So, in my case, that is 4 inversions in the first 30 seconds (followed by a sharp tap to the bottom of the tank to remove any air bells) and thereafter one inversion every 30 seconds (also followed by a sharp tap to the bottom of the tank).

Best of luck with you experimenting,

David.

Note: my current temporary website address is : http://dsallen.carpentier-galerie.de

Andrew O'Neill · Dec 4, 2020

I don't pre-wash all films, such as Ilford's. I do pre-wash TMY, but only to remove AH layer (I use mainly large format developed in tubes and layer doesn't clear well). I use tap water. If you don't trust your water, then use distilled. I've always stuck with 3 minutes, intermittent agitation, same temperature as the developer.

NB23 · Dec 4, 2020

Film and paper are one same thing: a light sensitive medium which can be used either as a negative or positive. It is, at micro-level, a spongeous emulsion coated onto a support.

I can’t wait for the day when artists will finally come to the realisation that their art will reach a new level if they prewash their paper before developing it. And even better, stand develop their prints for a whole hour, without any movement, in a highly dilute dektol.

NB23 · Dec 4, 2020

Andrew O'Neill said:
I don't pre-wash all films, such as Ilford's. I do pre-wash TMY, but only to remove AH layer (I use mainly large format developed in tubes and layer doesn't clear well). I use tap water. If you don't trust your water, then use distilled. I've always stuck with 3 minutes, intermittent agitation, same temperature as the developer.

It’s not like the developer will WELD the AH layer forever onto the film if it has not been cleared before the developer touches it.

One pre-rinse equals exactly one after rinse, as far as rinsing goes. If one pre-rinse washes out 12% of the AH layer, then one after rinse will wash out 12% of the AH layer. However, the AH layer has been developed in order to make the first water contact very smoothly and uniformly. By rinsing out the AH layer with anything other than developer is actually a bad practice. Yes it is a bad practice because you are filling the film with water, and now the developer will have to displace this water and infiltrate the film, which will be done in an en-even fashion, and which will take some time.

Wanting to rinse out the color of the ah before developing has more to do with a compulsive-obsessive disorder and magical thinking than anything else.

Please understand people, I am your friend. All I am saying is save yourself the hassle. You will end up with better results, TOO.

Why do people fight to do things the wrong and long way?

Andrew O'Neill · Dec 4, 2020

NB23 said:
It’s not like the developer will WELD the AH layer forever onto the film if it has not been cleared before the developer touches it.

One pre-rinse equals exactly one after rinse, as far as rinsing goes. If one pre-rinse washes out 12% of the AH layer, then one after rinse will wash out 12% of the AH layer. However, the AH layer has been developed in order to make the first water contact very smoothly and uniformly. By rinsing out the AH layer with anything other than developer is actually a bad practice. Yes it is a bad practice because you are filling the film with water, and now the developer will have to displace this water and infiltrate the film, which will be done in an en-even fashion, and which will take some time.

Wanting to rinse out the color of the ah before developing has more to do with a compulsive-obsessive disorder and magical thinking than anything else.

Please understand people, I am your friend. All I am saying is save yourself the hassle. You will end up with better results, TOO.

Why do people fight to do things the wrong and long way?

Do you use BTZS tubes? If you do then you'll understand why I pre-wash TMY sheet film. Without pre-wash, you end up with a blue AH band where the developer couldn't contact it. Takes forever to clear, unless you rub the backside with your finger while it's in the fixer. And it's not a bad thing with this film. At least the results that I've been getting for the past 25 years are fine. HP5 on the other hand, can result in streaking, which has happened to me. I never pre-wash Ilford films.

NB23 · Dec 4, 2020

Andrew O'Neill said:
Do you use BTZS tubes? If you do then you'll understand why I pre-wash TMY sheet film. Without pre-wash, you end up with a blue AH band where the developer couldn't contact it. Takes forever to clear, unless you rub the backside with your finger while it's in the fixer. And it's not a bad thing with this film. At least the results that I've been getting for the past 25 years are fine. HP5 on the other hand, can result in streaking, which has happened to me. I never pre-wash Ilford films.

I fully respect and acknowkedge other people’s experiences and expertize, and in your case you know what you are doing.

Vaughn · Dec 4, 2020

I have had the same issue as Andrew in Expert Drums, only I could never get the remains of the AH layer off the film...but in my case it was corrected by using a non-hardening fixer...along with a water bath before developer.

Getting film wet before add developer is not a bad, incorrect or damaging practice At the most it is unneeded, and is recommended in some cases.

Sirius Glass · Dec 4, 2020

I had many private conversations with PE about prewash. I prewash all film except Tri-X 400 when developed with XTOL in a Jobo processor. Both Kodak and Jobo agree with that. Especially when using replenished developer, prewash get rid of the blue dye.

Pre-Wash

Robert Canis

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