Pre-visualisation

Old-N-Feeble · Apr 14, 2018

EvH, the problem is your comment was only pre-sarcastic, which affected TL's post-understanding of your post. Had you pre-posted your pre-intention then TL's post-perception of your pre-sarcastic post would have been post-understood. Am I pre-preventing any post post-misunderstandings? Or am I just pre-pretending any pre-pretense of making post-sense of pre-sensible posting?

EDIT: I wonder if there will ever be a Pre-Preparation-H. Would it be applied or pre-applied or post-applied? I pucker to pre-consider the pre-preponderance of such a post-posterior product.

Billy Axeman · Apr 14, 2018

In theory I can imagine someone can reliably visualize what the end result is before a photo is taken from a scene, but I guess you must have a special talent for that, so I am skeptical it happens as much as people say. Personally I shoot mostly intuitively and let my subconscious brain do the work in the background to detect compositions and patterns. It works very fast and in practice I get interesting photo's all the time.

faberryman · Apr 14, 2018

Billy Axeman said:
In theory I can imagine someone can reliably visualize what the end result is before a photo is taken from a scene, but I guess you must have a special talent for that, so I am skeptical it happens as much as people say.

No special talent is required. Just some practical experience. Previsualization need not be complex. It can be a simple as deciding on N-1 development to hold detail in the highlights or using a red filter to darken the sky. What it does require is some forethought about the image you are trying to achieve.

E. von Hoegh · Apr 14, 2018

Billy Axeman said:
In theory I can imagine someone can reliably visualize what the end result is before a photo is taken from a scene, but I guess you must have a special talent for that, so I am skeptical it happens as much as people say. Personally I shoot mostly intuitively and let my subconscious brain do the work in the background to detect compositions and patterns. It works very fast and in practice I get interesting photo's all the time.

That "special talent" is called "craftsmanship". It's relatively easy, if you know how your materials and chemistry work.

silveror0 · Apr 14, 2018

Old-N-Feeble said:
EvH, the problem is your comment was only pre-sarcastic, which affected TL's post-understanding of your post. Had you pre-posted your pre-intention then TL's post-perception of your pre-sarcastic post would have been post-understood. Am I pre-preventing any post post-misunderstandings? Or am I just pre-pretending any pre-pretense of making post-sense of pre-sensible posting?

EDIT: I wonder if there will ever be a Pre-Preparation-H. Would it be applied or pre-applied or post-applied? I pucker to pre-consider the pre-preponderance of such a post-posterior product.

It seems that stuttering can be a learned capability.

E. von Hoegh · Apr 14, 2018

Old-N-Feeble said:
EvH, the problem is your comment was only pre-sarcastic, which affected TL's post-understanding of your post. Had you pre-posted your pre-intention then TL's post-perception of your pre-sarcastic post would have been post-understood. Am I pre-preventing any post post-misunderstandings? Or am I just pre-pretending any pre-pretense of making post-sense of pre-sensible posting?

EDIT: I wonder if there will ever be a Pre-Preparation-H. Would it be applied or pre-applied or post-applied? I pucker to pre-consider the pre-preponderance of such a post-posterior product.

Please send me a bit of whatever you are ingesting!

Old-N-Feeble · Apr 14, 2018

E. von Hoegh said:
Please send me a bit of whatever you are ingesting!

You Yankees couldn't handle it.

E. von Hoegh · Apr 14, 2018

Old-N-Feeble said:
You Yankees couldn't handle it.

Isn't that a bit pre-pesumptuous? Besides, we're rednecks, not yankees!

Sirius Glass · Apr 14, 2018

I do not post process my post-pre-visualizations.

Old-N-Feeble · Apr 14, 2018

E. von Hoegh said:
Isn't that a bit pre-pesumptuous? Besides, we're rednecks, not yankees!

An Adirandack redneck? I can't even pre-visualize such a thing.

E. von Hoegh · Apr 14, 2018

Old-N-Feeble said:
An Adirandack redneck? I can't even pre-visualize such a thing.

Nor can you spell it.

TheRook · Apr 14, 2018

Usually while I am taking a photo, I have a fairly clear picture in my mind what I want the final product -the print- to look like. This helps me work efficiently and also cuts down on wasting film.
I suppose one could call it pre-visualization.

Sirius Glass · Apr 14, 2018

And one could also call it pre-pre-pre-pre-visualization.

Old-N-Feeble · Apr 14, 2018

Oops... I've been one-upped. Or is that pre-one-upped?

removed account4 · Apr 14, 2018

Poisson Du Jour said:
(Pre-) or Visualisation: aesthetics, placement, impact and code of arrangement.
Conceptualisation: the basal idea that will lead to visualisation — the image on film, in-camera, on a plate...whatever.
There is no such word as 'previsualisation' used in tertiary art education, certainly not in photography streams. But C&V are key tenets.

maybe ...
but maybe not
its a book written b y minor white
https://www.amazon.com/Zone-System-Manual-Previsualize-Pictures/dp/B000LCYQJ8

Old-N-Feeble · Apr 14, 2018

Not a big deal... just a Minor mistake.

benjiboy · Apr 15, 2018

E. von Hoegh said:
Correct.

I agree it's being able to visualize the eventual outcome on the printing paper before you release the shutter.

E. von Hoegh · Apr 15, 2018

benjiboy said:
I agree it's being able to visualize the eventual outcome on the printing paper before you release the shutter.

I don't know what the big debate is about.
A machinist knows what the finished part will be, to literally hairsplitting tolerances; a sculptor "sees" the finished object within the block of stone, a carpenter within the wood, etc..
Taking a picture without some idea what the finished image will be is like throwing darts blindfolded.

Old-N-Feeble · Apr 15, 2018

I agree that we can and should visualize what the finalized image should look like. My silly comments were only about the nonexistent word "previsualize". A famous photographer grammatically erred resulting in endless repetition of the same made-up word which makes no sense whatsoever. The word "visualize" is the appropriate word. "Visualization" is already what we do before we take action. How do we prepare for visualization? I suppose we could meditate for thirty minutes in preparation for visualization. That might qualify as previsualization but I'd call that visualization preparation.

E. von Hoegh · Apr 15, 2018

Old-N-Feeble said:
I agree that we can and should visualize what the finalized image should look like. My silly comments were only about the nonexistent word "previsualize". A famous photographer grammatically erred resulting in endless repetition of the same made-up word which makes no sense whatsoever. The word "visualize" is the appropriate word. "Visualization" is already what we do before we take action. How do we prepare for visualization? I suppose we could meditate for thirty minutes in preparation for visualization. That might qualify as previsualization but I'd call that visualization preparation.

"Visprep".
"Proactive" is another, phrases such as "x year anniversary", "removed out of" etc., all are beloved by the not-quite-literate.

removed account4 · Apr 15, 2018

Old-N-Feeble said:
Not a big deal... just a Minor mistake.

http://instantrimshot.com

click link, click button, enjoy

Bill Burk · Apr 15, 2018

I always figured previsualization was simply understanding what shade of gray to expect something in your subject will appear on the print.

And the Zone System "Zones" are a good way to relate the meter readings to the print.

When you can see something in your picture will turn to black (or less), you can think whether you should make a different picture, modify the light or accept the shades of gray that you are going to get.

RalphLambrecht · Apr 15, 2018

cliveh said:
Is he term pre-visualisation a con to make believe what was seen is how the outcome was controlled, when the outcome could be accidental to the MO?

there is no such word and the term can simply be replaced with 'visualization, meaning that you are striving for an outcomesimlar to what you foresaw for a final image.

tedr1 · Apr 15, 2018

E. von Hoegh said:
I use film, so for me it's about getting it right, the first and only time, on the film. Where I want shadow detail, where I don't, which if any filter to use, what do I have to do now, in the field, to get a negative that will allow me to make the print I see in my head. There's no preview beyond what I see on the groundglass, and the "review" happens when the sheet is developed and printed. With TXP 8x10 now at $12 per sheet, it damn well better be right the first time.

I question this argument.
At the camera while preparing to make an exposure our perceptions and technical skills are guiding the decisions we make. Data is not infinite, thinking is not perfect, time is not unlimited, humans experience mental and physical fatigue. These factors combine to influence our aesthetic and technical choices. The outcome is unlikely to be perfect, no matter what the price of the materials is.
When visual preview and review tools are added to the camera we are able to inspect the captured image before leaving the location, the opportunity to make further adjustments and make another exposure does not decrease the prospect of a "perfect" image, rather it is increased. I submit that with film this does not happen, we are the weak link in the chain, we are unable to process the consequences of multiple adjustments in real time to the required accuracy, with the result that with no image review the image is more likely to include a flaw rather than less likely.
Data memory is inexpensive. (It is batteries that eat up the dollars)

E. von Hoegh · Apr 15, 2018

tedr1 said:
I question this argument.
At the camera while preparing to make an exposure our perceptions and technical skills are guiding the decisions we make. Data is not infinite, thinking is not perfect, time is not unlimited, humans experience mental and physical fatigue. These factors combine to influence our aesthetic and technical choices. The outcome is unlikely to be perfect, no matter what the price of the materials is.
When visual preview and review tools are added to the camera we are able to inspect the captured image before leaving the location, the opportunity to make further adjustments and make another exposure does not decrease the prospect of a "perfect" image, rather it is increased. I submit that with film this does not happen, we are the weak link in the chain, we are unable to process the consequences of multiple adjustments in real time to the required accuracy, with the result that with no image review the image is more likely to include a flaw rather than less likely.
Data memory is inexpensive. (It is batteries that eat up the dollars)

It's not an argument but a description of how I work with large format cameras, 100% of the time. I have a similar often less structured process with mf and miniature cameras.
There is no modern digital eqivalent of the view camera, so it's the ONLY way I can get what I want, every time.
Visualisation works, period.

Pre-visualisation

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