Pre-soak question

[gnashings]

Hi,

I am about to pre-soak for the first time!!! Its sounds funny, but after all those rollsof film, my pre-soaking experience is 0. Nada.
I just shot a roll of Efke R100, and remembered that most people strongly recommend a pre-soak for Efke films. My question is this:
-is presoaking as simple as pouring in some water at the same temp as the chemicals, letting it sit and pouring it out? Or fo I agitate?
Also, I have read times from 2 minutes to 5 minutes...

I would really appreciate a voice of experience from the APUG community so that I know how to do this right.

By the way, its seems there are many opinions on this film - even the developing times seem all over: I rated the film at 100 and plan to dvelop it in a Patterson tank in Rodinal 1+50 (20deg C) - and I have seen times from 9 to 12 minutes... I am leaning towards the lower end since I will be using a condensor anlarger...

Anyhow, I would like to thank you all in advance for any input and help you can give me,

Peter.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

I'd presoak for 2 minutes and agitate every 30 sec. or so. It's not critical.

 

[gnashings]

Thank you - I thought it probably wasn't all that critical... but I didn't want to ASSume anything (been there, done that - not proud of it)
Thanks a lot for your input and quick reply,

Peter.

 

[reellis67]

Doesn't it have to do with bubbles on the film or something? I've never done it, and never had problems either, but I'm only developing 4x5... I am certainly not trying to say that there is no need for it though. I do, however, find it interesting that there is someone else who has not done it before - I always figured that I was the only one...

- Randy

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

There are a few reasons to presoak. With Efke film, it's to remove the blue dye that might not otherwise come out, depending on your other chemistry. Another reason would be to promote more even absorption of the developer, and how important that is depends on the developer, development time, and film.

 

[wfe]

I pre soak 120 film at developer temp. which I have found helps to maintain temperature and removes the anti halation stuff. Brings the film and tank up to temp.

 

[p krentz]

Pre-soak

I started using pre-soaking about 84 when I was having problems with air bells and uneven dev. since then I have not had any more problems. I don't do much roll film anymore but when I did the agitation was vigereous? for one min and then again at 4 min. I soak everything for 5:00 Pat

 

[Thomassauerwein]

I've always done it. In my mind it helps to swell the film so that when you immerse the first time in the developer the developer addresses more evenly. I also like the idea of getting rid of the die layer. Most people don't think it really matters and they are probably rite. But by pre-soaking it just makes the initial contact between developer and the film cleaner. fewer barriers and film already acclimated to moister and temperature without responsibility for activity. It is important to allow the film to drip or drain for a bit also.

 

[c6h6o3]

Steve Sherman said something to me which really hit home. He said: "Immersing your film in developer without having pre-soaked it in water is like trying to clean off a counter top with a bone dry, rock hard sponge". That makes perfect sense to me. I've increased my pre-soak time to 5 minutes from 2 minutes. Don't know if that makes all that much difference, but it can't hurt.

 

[jim appleyard]

For everything, there is a first time! I don't know if a presoak has any benefits, but I often do it anyway. I would think that some agitation is necessary to get rid of air bubbles; a sharp rap of the tank on the counter at the least.

I usually use 1/2 teaspoon of sod carb/1 liter of water. 1/2 tsp of borax seems to work just as well. I then give a full water rinse after dumping. Presoaking seems to flush out a lot of the dyes in the film. I go for 5 min., although a lot of folks use much less time. APX 25/120 gave the nicest jade green color to the presoak water. I'll miss that!

 

[df cardwell]

Pre-soaking is exactly like not stepping on sidewalk cracks.

OK, now I'm back to watching Red Green. Have fun.

d

 

[Jim Jones]

Presoaking is sometimes essential for sheet film. One example was when solarizing Tech Pan film in Solarol developer. Another is for quick and rough film developing in print developer. I add a drop of Photo-Flo to the presoak tray. In four or eight reel daylight tanks, a presoak promotes even development.

 

[gnashings]

Thank you all very much for the information, as always it is most appreciated!

And apparently (although I am not aware of it, but the people around me have told me) I never step on the cracks in the sidewalk...

Peter.

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

I always presoak when developing with Pyrocat (as recommended by Sandy King). I also don't step on cracks and I don't spill the salt.

 

[gnashings]

Am I to understand that photographers are a superstitious bunch?
The funniest thing about my "crack avoidance" is that I was completely unaware of it until it was pointed out to me! I wonder what that says about me... perhaps its best I don't know

I think as far as the pre-soaking goes, it seems to be something some people do, some people don't - but it is most often mentioned as a good step to take with the Efke films. The way I look at it, I am going to try it since it seems to be needed in this case, and who knows - maybe it will become a part of my routine?
Once again, thanks to all for your help - I can't say it enough times, APUG'ers are a real gold mine and I feel very fortunate to have found this place!

Peter.

 

[fschifano]

I have at times used a presoak, but most times I don't. Perhaps the greatest advantage to using a presoak is in temperature control. During the winter months, my basement darkroom can get pretty cold. Filling the loaded tank with processing temperature water and setting the whole thing down into a tempering bath for a few minutes keeps the subsequent developer step's temperature where it needs to be. Consistant temperature control equals consistant results in this case.

 

[df cardwell]

I always presoak when developing with Pyrocat (as recommended by Sandy King). I also don't step on cracks and I don't spill the salt.

Well, Tom, that's just common sense....

 

[Kino]

I always presoak b&w film and have since 1979.

3 to 5 minutes on average, plain water at developer temperature.

Never had a problem related to presoaking, ever. Can't remember the last time I had an air bell or bubble...

Did I mention I always presoak?

 

[Peter De Smidt]

Ryuji Suzuki has some info on pre-soaking at:

Dead Link Removed

 

[Gerald Koch]

What's interesting about pre-soaking is that the film manufacturers don't recommend it. It seems to have gotten a foothold in many photographers psyche when Jobo started recommending it for their rotary processors. The usual rational is that it aids in uniform wetting when the developer is added. This can be counter productive in that modern emulsions usually incorporate a wetting agent for just this purpose. If you insist on presoaking then it should be plain water with nothing added.

 

[df cardwell]

Before Jobo, there WAS A GOOD REASON TO PRE SOAK: you collected sheetfilm in a tray of water before placing the sheets into the developer so they wouldn't stick to each other.

Now, it seems to have acquired some magical property. Ryuji's suggestion for Acros seems plausible, but it seems every decade has it's photo-prophylactic, and there is an astonishing catalogue of weird practises and bizarre additives that appeal to the repressed gnostic in each of us.

Like a tablet that will make my pickup truck get 50 miles per gallon.

Oh, well. I worry about photo-ideology, and try to stick to cause and effect.

C'mon Gerald, let's go get some beer.

 

[mono]

I always presoak all films at 20 C for 2 minutes with continuous agitation.

 

[Gerald Koch]

Now, it seems to have acquired some magical property. Ryuji's suggestion for Acros seems plausible, but it seems every decade has it's photo-prophylactic, and there is an astonishing catalogue of weird practises and bizarre additives that appeal to the repressed gnostic in each of us.

Sort of like athletes who always wear the same socks because they wouldn't win otherwise.

 

[titrisol]

presoaking has been part of my OP for years, and since it works I don;t plan to change it.
It was explained that the main advantage was an even wetting/swelling of the gelatin and time was not critical.
1 minute should be enough, but sometime I leave the film there for 3 or even 5 minutes while I dilute developer.

no magic bullet, just somethign I've done forever.

 

[df cardwell]

.... since it works I don;t plan to change it.
....

that makes as much sense as anything.

there are things I've done forever, and i've forgotten why,
but it all works and i don't want to change

but i begin to worry when we begin prescribing to others our own idiosyncrisies, and worry especially more when there develops an apparent rationale about them

if there is a specific need for a specific remedy or procedure, great

but i blame scurrilous technique and miserable teaching for the decline in silver photography, not digital technology, and am more comfortable knowing that what i do, and what i teach, share, or impose on others has clear value in order that i'm not spreading confusion

i'm not hammering especially on pre-soaking: goodness know i haven't used all the developers and practised all the techniques, and i surely don't have a solid grasp on more than a little corner of photo-technique. but there is SO MUCH that passes for science, or art, or well founded technique that is simply.... pointless when applied beyond a specific application that i think it's appropriate to ask, without starting a bloodbath, "Why do you do that ?'

.