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Pre-soak before developing & developer reuse question

altair

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Hi all. Perhaps these questions have been asked here before, but I can't seem to find it. I'd like to ask the following:

1) What is the purpose of the pre-soak step before you start developing film? I know some people do this and some don't, I was told about it by a friend who recommends doing it. When I developed my 1st roll of film about 3 days ago (Lucky SHD100), I presoaked it and the negatives turned out excellent.

2) How many cycles can I reuse my developer? I use Ilford's LC29 in a 1:19 dilution. Ideally, it should be used as a 'one-shot' developer..correct? But in my situation, I'd like to reuse it for at least 4-5 times per solution. The reason being if I were to use it as a one shot dev, then it'd burn a hole in my pocket..my fixed student income doesn't allow me to buy a lot of stuff. So far, the solution I've made has been used only once. I'm getting concerned about this because I've read on another forum that a guy got 'blank' negatives..someone pointed out that it could be because he reused his developer (LC29 also, but in 1:29)) for 6 times in the past 2 months, so his dev got exhausted. How do I know when it's time to dump the dev (or fixer) solution that I made and make a new one? Change of color, change of smell, etc?

Thanks in advance!
 
Pre-soak:

I do it. Many don't. Some of the manufacturers are silent about it. Some of the manufacturers advise how to compensate for it. Some recommend against it.

If you are going to do it, you need to modify your development time to take it into account, and then you need to do it consistently.

The biggest advantage to it is it tempers your tank and reel to the correct temperature. I also like that it helps get rid of anti-halation dye.

Developer re-use:

1) Best not to do it. If you are going to do it, I'd suggest that you should only do it as part of a replenishment regime, and that only makes sense if you develop a fair amount of film, and do so regularly.

If you intend to use replenishment, X-Tol may be the easiest.

But for someone just starting out I really wouldn't recommend anything other than one shot use.

Personally, I use Kodak HC110. I use 6ml of concentrate for each roll of film, usually diluted 1+49. HC110 comes in 473 ml bottles (in North America) so that means I can develop approximately 79 rolls of film per bottle (75 if you allow for some wastage). It is fairly easy to measure out small amounts (such as 6 ml) and, in concentrate form, lasts a very long time.

HC110 costs me about $18.00 per bottle to buy. That means I spend $0.24 per roll to develop film.

Ilfotec HC would be the closest comparative developer from Ilford. From what I understand, although Ilford doesn't recommend it, you can use it one shot direct from concentrate just like HC110.

Here are links to the Ilford Data sheets for HC and LC29. Note the additional complexities if you try to reuse LC29:

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2006130203552943.pdf
and
http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/20073211236917.pdf

Fixer Capacity:

As for fixer, the data sheets for the chemistry give you information about capacity. In addition, there are clearing tests you can do (search for threads on that here).

Matt

PS all prices in Canadian $
 
I pre-soak, I do not adjust times, I have not had any problems with doing this.

I think its especially important if you want to re-use colour neg developer if you do colour.

I also pre-soak when doing Rodinal 1+100 stand.
 
I do pre-soak for all the above reasons and because I believe there is a slight compensating effect (I read this somewhere, and it does appear to reduce contrast ever so slightly).
 
If there are no antihalation dyes pre-soak could be considered optional. However, since it's just water and a minute of your time, why not. If I didn't presoak, my developer would end up looking like blueberry koolaid from the antihalation stuff on tmy2 film.

I am not sure about the developer you mention. I have reused D76 (not diluted) and XTOL 2-3 times without trouble. I would not go 4-5 times. Your product will be less consistent if you use overused developer. You will probably have negatives that seem slightly underexposed, not blank.
 
I also pre-soak, mainly to bring the tank and reel to correct temp. The anti-halation dye would come off regardless of pre-soaking, so that doesn't matter.

As far as re-using developer, why? Why not use one-shot and get the best consistent results you can?
 
Negatives are like gold. You have but one chance to get it right. Therefore, use fresh developer each time. Why take a risk? Yup, tough on a student budget, but wouldn't you feel silly if the best picture of your life was grossly underdeveloped because the chemicals were stale?

I presoak. Since I'm nostly developing sheet film in trays, a presoak lets me get all the negativs in water, wet, and stacked reasy to go into the developer at the same time. I'm told presoaked negatives take developer faster and more evenly. Beats me, but it sounds good enough to do.
 
Against the grain, I never pre-soak except with C41 colour developing.

It's an unnecessary step, has no function, increases the overall process time.

Ian
 
Ian Grant said:
Against the grain, I never pre-soak except with C41 colour developing.

It's an unnecessary step, has no function, increases the overall process time.

Ian
Click to expand...

Ian is right. Pre-soak a waste of time, unless you have to deal with very short development times (<4 min). As far as using it to get the equipment to the right temperature: calibrate your process to ambient temperatures and you won't have to worry about that.
 
Replenishing is a great way to go actually.... I like one shot use, but one shot of TMAX developer mixed 1:4 is not too economical. Kodak recommends that this combination can be used for up to 15 films before it needs development time compensation. I also follow their recommendation for replenishment.... Not using the RS replenisher, but fresh 1:4 TMAX developer. I keep a 2 liter working batch at all times. Just before each use, I remove 70ml per film being developed and add in freshly mixed 1:4 solution to top off the 2 liters. This works VERY well for me and provides significant economy. Others I know use XTOL stock this way too. The advantage of a replenished system is that after around 10 to 15 development sessions like this, the 'soup' seasons very well. It takes the edge off a little and produces really nice and robust negatives that are really easy to print, but with less potential for blown out highlights. It's hard for me to explain, I just like the look of the negs done this way, and have no trouble with it.
 

Sounds good for some people, but ambient for me is anything between 20 and 30C. Ouch!
 
Same problem with ambient in Florida! Of course, the Jobo unit solves most of the problem. Also, it is rather amazing how adept the sense of touch becomes with reference to small temperature differences. If one makes the temperature a certain level in a glass, and puts one's finger in, after the short time that it takes to become "used to" the temperature in the glass, one can run the water and adjust it to be rather close to the temperature in the glass-merely by touch. Of course, small bits of adjustment might be needed.
 

Mahler

I'm about 3 years away from Florida retirement, so, this is important to me! Why not calibrate the system to 25C?
 
Anon Ymous said:
I'll go up to 24C, but it can become problematic with some film/developer combinations, especially if you do any pull processing. Development times can get really short.
Click to expand...

Compensate with increased developer dilution or reduced pH?
 
Pre-soak is a waste of time for many folks, me included. I gather some people find it utterly necessary. I'm unable to figure out why, but maybe they have different water quality. My home water is so so. Maybe really good, or really bad makes pre soak work.

Getting rid of antihalation dyes and the like seems easy if I use film strength rapid fix, and a wash aid like Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent, or Permawash. I do a full four minute fix, a generous rinse, two changes and then, generous time in the wash aid, and a generous wash. The pink goes away completely.
 
Ilford recommend not to pre soak their Delta 400 so I don't. Prior to changing to Delta I always did a pre soak. I also use Ilford ID11 developer stock solution and dump it at the end of the developing time. For fixing my film (35mm) I restrict my quantity to 15 films.
 
RalphLambrecht said:
Compensate with increased developer dilution or reduced pH?
Click to expand...

Yes, dilution is an option, but I don't understand how I can alter pH. Dilution will decrease pH, but slightly I guess. Any other way I'm not aware of? In any case, it has become my standard and it takes me only a few minutes, since I always mix water at the target temperature for washing.

@CBG:
Water quality is probably irrelevant in this case. How could presoak affect development if water's quality is poor?
 
I always pre-soak. Takes some dye with it and brings it to temp ready for the developer. Can't see it does any harm and it only takes one minute. Part of the routine for me, just as much as a final bath of distilled water with photoflo is after the wash, no marks on my negs

'Calibrate the process to ambient temp' eh? Easier said than done. Every time I turn the tap on the water temp's going to be different, every day is different, and the weather in these parts mean it can be 45 degrees Celsius one day, 20 Celsius the next. I'd rather not waste half the day trying to balance these two wildly-fluctuating variables before I can get to developing the first film.
 
Anon Ymous said:
Sounds good for some people, but ambient for me is anything between 20 and 30C. Ouch!
Click to expand...

It is for me too but I've found it easy to get consistent results, the water temp now is 20°C, room temps around 18°C, but in the summer that rises to 26/27°C for the water and much the same indoors where I process.

Luckily I use a developer with a dev time of around 15 minutes at °C so that gives me times of aprox 9 mins at 27°C, and with no water baths etc the temperature stays +/- ½°C easily.

I've found it better to work to the water temperature than struggle with variations by working at a cooler temperature.

Ian
 
Heheh, some people have done what they could to brainwash some others to use replenished developers. And that includes you Ian! If I can get fine grain and sharpness I'd be really glad. Being a 135 shooter, these things matter.

Anyway, stock Xtol needs shortish development times with most films at 20°C. At 24°C it's manageable. If you do any pull processing, you're getting too low. Of course, I can switch to agitation every minute, which will buy me probably ~15% more time. A replenished developer will also need some more time to get to the same contrast, probably 10% more? I'll have to do some testing once I get to a stable state. If it becomes unrealistic, I can always dilute 1+1, which is easy. It's what I've been doing so far and it's reliable and absolutely doable at 24°C.
 
I use pre-soaking when processing black & white but not C-41 in the Jobo. While conducting tests on the system last year, I attempted processing without a pre-soak and experienced strange high contrast effects on the resultant negatives and prints. There may have been some other contributory factor but when I returned to using a pre-soak the contrast effects went away.

Processing film with Kodak XTOL (replenished) in Paterson tanks I do not pre-soak, partly due to fears about excessive dilution; however, I've not experienced the same contrast effects as given via Jobo rotary processing.

Tom
 
gamincurieux said:
I always pre-soak. Takes some dye with it and brings it to temp ready for the developer. Can't see it does any harm and it only takes one minute...
Click to expand...

Short pre-soaks can leave water stains, because the developer activity depends on how much water the emulsion has absorbed. If a pre-soak is used, it should be several minutes long (3-5) to be safe. I see no need and leave it off completely.
 

Tom

Processing times do increase when using a pre-soak. It does not matter if you use a pre-soak or not, but once you've conducted a film test with or without pre-soak, you need to stick to the regime. Switching back and forth is not a good idea and will only confuse the response to process variations.
 
I recommend a pre-soak of about three minutes when developing negatives in Pyro developers in tubes or Jobo. The main purpose is to prevent uneven staining on the base side of the film.

I also recommend a pre-soak of five minutes at 75F with two-bath development with slow speed fine grain films that have a very hard and thin emulsion. The purpose is to swell the emulsion so that it can absorb as much of the reducer and accelerator as possible.

Other than these two situations I consider the pre-soak to be an optional step.

Sandy King
 
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