Pre-dag family photo circa 1833

Malibu

A
Malibu

  • 1
  • 1
  • 42
Rockwood Park-4

A
Rockwood Park-4

  • 0
  • 0
  • 46
Enamored

A
Enamored

  • 0
  • 0
  • 106
Kea'au Bike Flower

A
Kea'au Bike Flower

  • 3
  • 1
  • 159

Recent Classifieds

Forum statistics

Threads
180,518
Messages
2,490,983
Members
95,091
Latest member
gigidamico
Recent bookmarks
0

_Alan_

Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2022
Messages
3
Location
Crimea
Shooter
Med Format Digital
I found a rather strange photo on my computer, which a couple of years ago I copied from some magazine from photographs of the 19th century, like Direct Media, but I don’t remember exactly. The photo was nowhere else on the Internet. This find is notable for its age and the fact that it was made before the advent of daguerreotypes, while being of rather high quality and made using a stereoscope.
So, this photo was attributed to Nicéphore Niépce (1765-1833). Under the photo it is written that his son Isidore Niepce (1795-1868) is depicted there with his family. The composition is very strange, especially the background, I can't make out exactly what is there: curtains, wallpapers or the windows, or all at once. Also, I can't make out the items on the windowsill. However, this photo doesn't look like shot of a painting. If the photo is authentic, it is most likely taken in the late 1820s or early 1830s and is possibly the oldest surviving photo of people. What do you think, is it genuine?
1830.jpg
 

Sirius Glass

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Messages
42,528
Location
Southern California
Shooter
Multi Format
He should have opened the lens one or two f/stops so he could have brought out more of the shadow details. :whistling:
 

jay moussy

Subscriber
Joined
Jun 10, 2019
Messages
1,053
Location
Eastern MA, USA
Shooter
Hybrid
I picked up a free book at a tag sale, early daguerrotype photographers in the U.S.
The book says and show that portrait photographers of the era replicated poses and backgrounds found in classic paintings.
Monsieur Niepce must have been doing that, using a "scene" created with props?
 

Maris

Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2006
Messages
1,383
Location
Noosa, Australia
Shooter
Multi Format
Almost certainly not from the 1820s or 1830s. The scene depicted suggest the interior of a room and the low light levels combined with the lack of light sensitivity of materials then available would imply an exposure time of many hours or days.
Remember Niepce's View from the Window at Le Gras, 1826 or 1827, considered the first photograph of a real world scene involved an all day exposure in blazing sunlight.
But the figures depicted could be wax works so extremely long exposure times might not be a problem.
Or the picture could be a copy of a drawing , mezzotint, lithograph, ... whatever. Nicephore Niepce was working on the photographic duplication or art works at the time; the 19th century equivalent of photocopying.
 
OP
OP

_Alan_

Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2022
Messages
3
Location
Crimea
Shooter
Med Format Digital
Here is where I found this photo: http://log-in.ru/books/fotografiya-...eiyted-kompani-i-mnogie-drugie-encsiklopedii/
What else can I add about this:
I found 5 possible dates for when the stereoscope was invented: 1823 (Mr. Elliot), 1829 (Mr. Elliot), 1833 (Charles Winston), 1837 (Charles Winston), 1839 (Charles Winston). If the photo was taken in the 1829-1830s, then it might match.
I tried to date the photo by the age of the girl: https://archivesniepce.com/index.ph...venteur/qui-etait-Nicephore-Niepce/genealogie
гениалогия.jpg
I found a family tree, where it is clear that if this is the daughter of Isidore Niepce, then she was born in 1827. In the photo she is about 7 years old (+-2 years). We get the dating of 1832-1836.
It is not clear how people stood for so long, it does not look like on the figure. Perhaps Nicephore Niépce at the end of his life still learned to take photos with a fast shutter speed.
Perhaps this photo could not have been taken by Niépce himself, but by someone he taught, so that it was shooted after 1833. I think the most likely date is 1833.
 
Last edited:

revdoc

Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2015
Messages
180
Shooter
Large Format
I have to say that I think a date prior to 1839 is very unlikely, if for no other reason than it be huge news if it was, and this image appears to have been published relatively recently, so the authors of that publication would have known its significance. Also, as Maris pointed out, it's too good for the time.

In any case, I looked for images of Isidore Niepce, but came up with nothing that would confirm the identity of the man shown. However, I found an 1850 dag of his son Etienne, and there's a strong resemblance, though the beard differs. So maybe the photo is of Etienne, or his brother Francois.

https://artsandculture.google.com/a...-fils-d-isidore-niépce-anonyme/UgGRafvyxAeNjA
 

bernard_L

Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2008
Messages
1,387
Shooter
Multi Format
the fact that it was made before the advent of daguerreotypes
made using a stereoscope
How do you know these facts? especially in view of the obscure origin of the photo:
Can't find that photo on that page, just the cover of a book about daguerrotypes.
Plus: the Niepce process required hours of exposure time in daylight. A daguerrotype required of order 15 minutes, such that special chairs were designed with a concealed headrest In the image under discussion, the little girl, without any kind of headrest, could not have kept motionless for such a long time.
170px-Device_to_hold_heads_during_Daguerreotype_exposure.JPG
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Device_to_hold_heads_during_Daguerreotype_exposure.JPG
 

glbeas

Subscriber
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
3,859
Location
Marietta, Ga. USA
Shooter
Multi Format
I see artifacts in the picture that suggest the background was a painted backdrop and this could have been done with outdoor lighting. Not such an unusual concept, I have old family portraits that look very similar with painted backdrops.
 

BrianShaw

Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2005
Messages
13,218
Location
Here or there.
Shooter
Multi Format
I would be researching Hill and Adamson long before Niepce. This is very much their style of portraiture and looks rather Victorian.
 

bernard_L

Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2008
Messages
1,387
Shooter
Multi Format
Sure. But just because some information has been put on the net by someone does not mean it is true. The caption in the link that you gave states:
Fotograf: Niépce, Joseph Nicéphore
Entstehungsjahr: 1829
Technik: Stereoskopie​
In 1832 Charles Wheatstone started working on a stereoscope to create a 3D illusion from a pair of drawings.
In 1838 he patented his invention.
In 1839 he starts using the new invention of Mssrs Daguerre and Fox Talbot to create photographic stereo images.
In the Getty image bank, stereo images by Wheatstone are generally dated after 1850.
 

Don Heisz

Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Messages
2,650
Location
Ontario
Shooter
35mm RF
I doubt the photo in this post is even as old as 1850. ... It's also quite a terrible photo. Pap's reading the Farmer's Almanac, little Sally is trying to get $5 to go to the soda shop, Nanny Mary is bringing over the family bible. And what is that in the background? A time machine? It also looks like a photo from a copy negative. It has misattribution written all over it.
 

Michel Hardy-Vallée

Membership Council
Council
Joined
Apr 2, 2005
Messages
4,702
Location
Montréal, QC
Shooter
Multi Format

pentaxuser

Subscriber
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
16,620
Location
Daventry, No
Shooter
35mm
So can I ask: What have you now concluded,Alan, based on our collective response? As another poster or posters have said the link takes you to a closed book only

Was the picture in the book and if so how did you open the book, Alan? I can't find any way to do so

Thanks

pentaxuser
 

AgX

Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2007
Messages
30,010
Location
Germany
Shooter
Multi Format

BMbikerider

Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2012
Messages
2,383
Location
UK
Shooter
35mm
I think the background and possibly the figures are a composite. e.g. where is the woman's left arm.

It looks as if the arm is in the dark area on her left side with at least 3 fingers of her hand on her left shoulder. It can only be her hand because there is no one else near her
 

Billy H

Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2022
Messages
1
Location
London
Shooter
Medium Format
it's highly unlikely it was photographed pre 1840s otherwise it would have been publicised years ago. Besides beards weren't in fashion in the 1820s and 1830s.
 

pentaxuser

Subscriber
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
16,620
Location
Daventry, No
Shooter
35mm
Alan from Crimea lasted 5 days from first to last visit. I asked a question on 31 Jan but never got an answer. Mind you he last visited on the previous day

I cannot help but feel there was more to his arrival than the simple question posed at the end of his first post

We'll never know of course but whatever he got or didn't get out of Photrio he decided we were not "fruitful ground"

pentaxuser
 
Photrio.com contains affiliate links to products. We may receive a commission for purchases made through these links.
To read our full affiliate disclosure statement please click Here.

PHOTRIO PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Ilford ADOX Freestyle Photographic Stearman Press Weldon Color Lab
Top Bottom