An old friend and I were talking about film developers and he mentioned that he wished he could get his hands on Edwal's 12 film developer again. He said it was one of his favorites from years gone bye and now he wants to start doing his own developing and printing again. I told him he could mix his own with chems from Photographers Formulary or just buy their ready made Developer 12. I told him if he bought the chemicals (I gave him the recipe from the cookbook) he could use my scales and magnetic stirrer to make his batch. He emailed me a couple of days later and said you can't buy PPD (p-Phenylenediamine) at Photographers Formulary and bought the Developer 12 mix instead. I was curious and checked myself and he was right. I then started looking for a place to buy it and came up empty handed. Does anyone no where to buy PPD? Also, I remember Gerald Koch, I think, saying something about color developer CD-1 or CD-2 could be used instead of PPD. What about P-Aminophenol Hydrochloride as a substitute?
PPD for Edwal 12 developer......................where to buy????
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Check to see if FreeStyle, and APUG sponsor, carries it. http://www.freestylephoto.biz/
I looked at Freestyle, but believe they get their raw chemicals from Photographers Formulary so if PF doesn't have it I was pretty sure Freestyle wouldn't either. Looks like I'll have to search for an alternative to p-Phenylenediamine or (PPD). This is one of those "Curiosity killed the cat" things. John W
I was able to find this at www.sigmaaldrich.com but it is $90 per gram. Unsure what there policy is on buying this stuff. Not sure if I would want to handle it. It's pretty nasty stuff.
I bought PPD from Photographers Formulary, 3 or 4 years ago, might have additional restriction on selling bulk, I hope it does not become too expenwsive as it is used MCM 100 my current go to developer.
If my last name was Trump I might buy some, but it's not and I won't at that price. Wow!
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I emailed PF and asked them this very question about a month ago-
Hi Patrick
We are waiting on a supply of P-Phenylaminediamine to arrive. We have had a difficult time finding a new supplier for this item.
Sherry
PPD has never been cheap, although it is less expensive than Glycin or Amidol. It is a unique developing agent. I hope it doesn't go away.
And by the way, I think Edwal 12 is probably the best developer I have ever used.
If your friend likes Edwal 12 he may like Edwal 10. Just a suggestion since it is basically the same developer just without the PPD. Tonality wise they are close, but the grain is larger without the PPD.
Hi Patrick
We are waiting on a supply of P-Phenylaminediamine to arrive. We have had a difficult time finding a new supplier for this item.
Sherry
PPD has never been cheap, although it is less expensive than Glycin or Amidol. It is a unique developing agent. I hope it doesn't go away.
And by the way, I think Edwal 12 is probably the best developer I have ever used.
If your friend likes Edwal 12 he may like Edwal 10. Just a suggestion since it is basically the same developer just without the PPD. Tonality wise they are close, but the grain is larger without the PPD.
It might be a surprise to you, but most of us know that FreeStyle actually has more than one supplier. You are making invalid assumptions.
Sorry Sirius Glass, but I believe my assumption to be correct. At least with the bulk chemicals they handle in their online site. All their bulk chemicals for making fixers, bleaches, developers etc. come from Photographers Formulary. If you don't believe me just ask them next time you stop in there. Or better yet, just look at their online site and see the name on the chemical bottles. I stand by my assumption until proven otherwise. John W
Two of the color developing agents CD-3 and CD-4 are substituted PPD's. They are probably easier to obtain than the parent chemical. You can substitute either but you must correct for the difference in molecular weights. PPD is a known allergen and sensitizer and has fallen out of favor because o this. CD-3 and CD-4 are less prone to cause problems These substitutions were made in a number of PPD commercial developers. The developer activity may al be a bit different so do some testing before using it on something serious.
Jerry,
Another fellow apuger informed me that I can get CD-2 at Artcraft and suggested to start out with a mol/mol weight and see what happens. I don't think I will try this until my friend gets his Developer 12 from the Formulary so I can have a reference point to go from. I did find a place to buy p-Phenylenediamine, free base and the price isn't all bad. 100g for $40.40, but I think CD-2 is the way to go. John W
CD1 or CD2 are better choices than CD3 or CD4 due to activity. But, they are rather nasty due to allergies.
PE
PE
Many years ago, I tried to touch-up my beard with some of my daughters dark brown hair dye. Needless to say I will never do that again as long as I live. My face looked like someone took a wire brush and scrubbed me down. Extremely painful also, but looked even worse. I think I'll put this developer project on the back burner for a while. I got enough irons in the fire as it is for now. Thanks guys, John W
The films of today are very different from those of 50-60 years ago. You might ask why ED-12 is no longer available if it stlll worked as well.
Even the hair dye manufactures have gone to compounds like the newer color developing agents as these chemicals cause fewer reactions.
Even the hair dye manufactures have gone to compounds like the newer color developing agents as these chemicals cause fewer reactions.
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Jerry,
Sometimes newer isn't always better. Remember Panatomic-X and Verichrome Pan? I'd love to have those two back again. What about the Pyro developers? They almost completely died out, but have now come back with a big following. Why? I'd guess 'cause they impart a different look to your work that the "new" stuff just doesn't. I'm really hooked on Wimberely's WD2H pyro developer, but do use Xtol and Rodinal also. Nice to have a choice..............John W
Phenylenediamine is a lousey developing agent. I causes poor separation of tones and muddy prints. However it is a very good silver halide solvent. Therefor it is usually used in combination with other developing agents. It was used in many fine grain developers. Since modern emulsions are already very finegrained developers like ED-12 are apt to produce less than dramatic results. This is the problem with using old style developers with modern films. They are not usually a good fit.
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Jerry,
You are right about mixing old with modern when it comes to some film developer/film combinations. Tmax and Tmy will both work with my WD2H pyro developer, but not like FP4 or HP5+. One of my favorite films for looks in WD2H pyro was Chinese Shanghai GP3 film. GP3 must be more of an old style emulsion? Still, the newer films do work pretty well with some of the older style developers. Rodinal and Acros is a fine example of that. Nothing written in stone when it comes to photography.
I was out of pyrogallol so I order some and while I was at it I ordered 100g of CD-2 to play with later on. John W
Some of the old developers contain Iodide and are designed for low Iodide or pure Bromide films. These were prevalent many years ago. Today, films are high Iodide, some as high as 9%. Therefore, the high I films don't respond the same to I developers as the older films.
PE
PE
I bought CD-2 from artcraftchem several years ago and it's still good, they still sell it. PPD isn't too expensive on Sigma Aldrich. You need to look at all the sources, there's one about 82.50 for 250g, which will be cheaper in USD.
What developer were you using the CD-2 in to replace PPD? Any clue as to weight measurement difference. Like 2.5g of CD-2 = 1.5g of PPD ?????? Just curious as to if PPD is more active per weight than CD-2. John W
MP Biomedicals, Inc. has p-Phenylenediamine, free base at $48.65 for 250g.
All custom/alternative things to play around with, mostly in colour developers, as a substitute.. I've used it in a developer for Telco Telcolor Swiss film in combination with benzyl alcohol, which worked out well for its age, and plan on using it on that Orwo ISO 64 colour neg film too.
Any use of a color developer in B&W formulations done years ago are bound to be very primitive based on what can be done. I would dismiss them entirely for any useful purpose. Remember that there is no magic bullet (unless a NEW approach is taken).
PE
PE
Oh, if I recall correctly, Tetenal Emofin uses PPD, or CD-1. Several packets here, never tried it.
Best I found was the potassium iodide trick to increase resolving power developed.
Best I found was the potassium iodide trick to increase resolving power developed.
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I have "My Leica and I", a 1937 book that mentions the use of PPD based Sease developer.
Part of the look is due to the use of cream colored paper.
This seems to be the nearest to those old films which is still in production:
http://www.adox.de/Photo/adox-films-2/adox-chs-100-type-ii/
Part of the look is due to the use of cream colored paper.
This seems to be the nearest to those old films which is still in production:
http://www.adox.de/Photo/adox-films-2/adox-chs-100-type-ii/
Alan,
That's interesting and I might have to try it sometime in the future, but one thing that puzzles me is what is at the bottom of that Adox sheet you have a link to. It states that Pyro developers are not recommended for this film or films with the AHU layer. That leaves me out since I like and use Wimberley's WD2H pyro developer. Now, just maybe I could use it if I follow John's instructions for WD2H. Those instructions are:
A pre-bath (Presoak) is recommended to help ensure even development and to minimize the presence of air bells (bubbles) on the film. The pre-bath consists of a working solution of wetting agent such as Formulary Forma-Flo or Edwal LFN in distilled water. To help dissolve anti-halation dyes present in the film emulsion, 1 level teaspoon of Sodium Carbonate, Monohydrate and 1/2 level teaspoon of Sodium Bisulfite per liter of distilled water may be added to the pre-bath.
Presoak the film for two minutes, agitating vigorously for the first 30 seconds, intermittently thereafter.
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