Powder Developer

[Tom Cross]

hi all, just wondering whether there are any benefits in quality from using powder-based developers or if the benefits are purely economical.

The reason I ask is that a lot of black and white images I see that are really good, fine grained etc are developed with powder developer. Also Ilford's chart comparing developers shows ID-11 to have better qualities in most areas than any of their liquid developers.

Thanks
Tom

 

[MattKing]

Are you talking about film developers, paper developers or both?

The answer to your question is no. There are some slight differences between developers (one may give more speed, where another gives finer grain) but there are no powder vs. liquid dividing lines when it comes to overall quality.

There are benefits when it comes to shipping and storage.

 

[Tom Cross]

Sorry yes I meant film developers. The Ilford table I saw is here on page 3 : http://www.ilfordphoto.com/webfiles/200629163442455.pdf

 

[nworth]

Although there is no "magic soup," there are differences between developers. If you prefer the results from a powdered developer, use it, although it may be a bit less convenient than the liquid stuff.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

hi all, just wondering whether there are any benefits in quality from using powder-based developers or if the benefits are purely economical.

The reason I ask is that a lot of black and white images I see that are really good, fine grained etc are developed with powder developer. Also Ilford's chart comparing developers shows ID-11 to have better qualities in most areas than any of their liquid developers.

First you must decide what you want from your photographs. Then you pick a film that closely matches that idea. Then you pick a developer that gives similar qualities to the film you chose and try that out, by processing film and printing, and repeat until you have reliable results of what you can accomplish.
Most film/developer combinations can be made to work wonderfully. It matters more how you use your materials than what you use, so technique will have far bigger impact on things like tonality than your materials will.

So, there is no 'best'. Only what works for you. And you must do due diligence to find out what that is.

I'd probably opine that based on my experience and use, Ilfotec DD-X is Ilford's best all-round developer. It does nothing wrong and a lot of things exceedingly well. It's a great place to start. ID-11 1+1 is also a really great place to start.
Then if you want finer grain you can try Perceptol. But it will cost you film speed and some sharpness (in my experience). Or if you want very sharp negatives you could use Ilfosol-S, but then you'd lose film speed and you'd have more grain.
Nothing is for free, some new quality gained is almost always at the expense of something else - which is why I said at the beginning that you decide first what you want, and then you try to find a way to get what you want. Be specific and once you decide on a film and a developer, stay with it for a while to fully explore the possibilities and the limitations.

 

[Alan Johnson]

For a given weight of powder developer, find the least soluble ingredient and calculate how much water would need to be shipped along with the powder.
Also consider if the keeping properties of the liquid would be as good.

 

[Tom Cross]

How much of a pain is it to mix? I've read somewhere it has to be done at a specific temperature and left to cool.

 

[pentaxuser]

How much of a pain is it to mix? I've read somewhere it has to be done at a specific temperature and left to cool.

I have mixed Perceptol and ID11 and I didn't find it a pain to mix. On the contrary it is quite straightforward. Once mixed it just needs to be stored in airtight containers but the same is true of liquid developers once opened and the contents partly used.

pentaxuser

 

[Tom Cross]

I might give it a go just to try it, presumably there are instructions. I've been regularly using DDX but find it a bit soft. I recently tried HC-110 which was very sharp but quite grainy. Rodinal has been similar, sharp but grainy. Best results so far with Rodinal was stand development.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Here is a comparison of Kodak developers. I greatly prefer XTOL.

http://www.blackandwhitefineart.net/2011/06/how-to-choose-a-black-and-white-film-developer/

 

[Tom Cross]

Here is a comparison of Kodak developers. I greatly prefer XTOL.

View attachment 158153​

http://www.blackandwhitefineart.net/2011/06/how-to-choose-a-black-and-white-film-developer/

Thanks Sirius, great article which I'll probably have to read a couple of times.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Convention is that powdered developers should be bottled after mixing and allowed to stand overnight before use. There is some evidence that this takes the edge off it. The same reasoning that chili is always better the second day. Other than that I can't think of any differences between powder and liquid developers.

 

[John Bragg]

I used ID11 for years and was very pleased with it, but HC-110 does the same job cheaper and keeps much longer. Be prepared to make a few tweeks with your technique along the way whichever developer you choose. Merely changing the dilution can make a world of difference.

 

[paul ron]

what powder developer would be best or similar to tmax developer for t grain films?

i see xtol has a very good rating on the chart but films arent listed.

 

[ColColt]

ID-11 Plus, as it was called years ago, was as simple to mix and any powdered developer and I've used it since 1978, mostly 1:1. It does better for me than D-76 for some reason and I like it more. I've used more HC-110 this past year or less than I ever have. It too, is a great developer for a lot of different films.

For Xtol, try this...scroll down and it shows lots of different films.

http://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/prod/files/files/resources/j109.pdf

 

[Ronald Moravec]

When you mix your own D76, you know it is fresh. If you mix from your own weighed chemicals, you can make a liter at a time at a cost of 50 cents.

Same for paper developers.

 

[Lachlan Young]

How much of a pain is it to mix? I've read somewhere it has to be done at a specific temperature and left to cool.

Not difficult at all, follow the instructions on the left hand column of pg.2 here http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2011427133131459.pdf Most problems come from people who assume they know more than the manufacturer's documentation.

I might give it a go just to try it, presumably there are instructions. I've been regularly using DDX but find it a bit soft. I recently tried HC-110 which was very sharp but quite grainy. Rodinal has been similar, sharp but grainy. Best results so far with Rodinal was stand development.

What is your comparison methodology? A cheap desktop scanner is of little use.

More to the point, the crucial things you have not told us are: what film are you using; what are you exposing it at; what dilution/ time/ temperature you are using and what is your agitation pattern?

About the only thing I'd hold against DD-X is its cost per film. Unless you need to do highly specific things (and even then it's moot), all the developers you mention, or indeed any pre-packed powder or liquid developer will process film well enough to give you images that all but print themselves. All they need is competent technique (very easy).

 

[MattKing]

Here is a comparison of Kodak developers. I greatly prefer XTOL.

View attachment 158153​

http://www.blackandwhitefineart.net/2011/06/how-to-choose-a-black-and-white-film-developer/

This chart is useful, but like the Ilford table also linked to, the chart tends to accentuate the differences between developers.

Someone new to this stuff will have a lot of difficulty telling the differences between the results obtained.

Make your choice based on practical considerations like availability and ease of use, build some experience with your film and developer combination, get better at printing the results, and then consider experimenting.

I really recommend XTol and a replenishment regime.

 

[Xmas]

There is no easy detectable difference between developers.
Fixing and washing is altogether different after three or four years.

The film type is the critical thing for look and speed.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

what powder developer would be best or similar to tmax developer for t grain films?

i see xtol has a very good rating on the chart but films arent listed.

Check the following site.

http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/xtol/

I am unaware of any commercial powdered developer specifically for T-grain films. There is a Crawley formula FX-37 should you wish to mix your own.

 

[Jim Noel]

How much of a pain is it to mix? I've read somewhere it has to be done at a specific temperature and left to cool.

In a huge number of cases, the appropriate temperature for mixing is a range, say from 110-130 deg F. For the more common developers like D-76, I mix the amount I need for the day, at the preferred dilution using water at room temperature, even though the "experts" say that doesn't work. I have only used this method for about 75 years so I could be wrong.

 

[Xmas]

I am unaware of any commercial powdered developer specifically for T-grain films. There is a Crawley formula FX-37 should you wish to mix your own.

Confirmed but Microphen, ID68 and Tmax each will soften the toe similarly.

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

what powder developer would be best or similar to tmax developer for t grain films?

For "New Technology" films, i.e. Fomapan 200, Ilford Delta range and Koda T-Max films, you can use Fomadon Excell if you want a powder developer.

 

[ericdan]

I used to never have issues with D76 until last weekend. Bought a fresh pack of D76 in the store. Expiry date was sometime in 2018. Stirred it into 600ml of 50 degree water. That usually dissolves everything pretty quickly. Then I add cold water and let it cool down completely in a bottle overnight.
This time, no stirring and shaking would dissolve the powder. Even after letting it sit overnight, it was still not dissolved. I tossed the solution and ordered a bottle of HC-110.

 

[Kevin Caulfield]

I used to never have issues with D76 until last weekend. Bought a fresh pack of D76 in the store. Expiry date was sometime in 2018. Stirred it into 600ml of 50 degree water. That usually dissolves everything pretty quickly. Then I add cold water and let it cool down completely in a bottle overnight.
This time, no stirring and shaking would dissolve the powder. Even after letting it sit overnight, it was still not dissolved. I tossed the solution and ordered a bottle of HC-110.

Surely it's worth letting Ilford know. I'm sure if Simon were still here, he'd be all over this.