Potassium cyanide fixer

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smieglitz

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Isn't there possibly another chemical less dangerous than cyanide, to produce the same effect of a better image than hypo?

No. I'm unaware of any alternative that produces the same effect. IMO, cyanide produces the best plates.

However, ammonium thiosulfate works much quicker than sodium thiosulfate and almost as quick as potassium cyanide. It produces a cooler image of slightly lower contrast. It is a very acceptable substitute for many people working in wetplate who do not care about being historically accurate or who prefer to avoid cyanide fixers for safety reasons, or who might prefer cooler image color for some reason.

There really is a difference in quality and color with the cyanide fixer. If that difference is worth the added risk is what the debate is all about.

Developer time also affects image color so some of the warmth of cyanide-fixed plates can be attained with shorter development times even when using thiosulfate fixers.

I'm yet to be convinced that sodium thiosulfate produces a more contrasty plate than ammonium thiosulfate based on the limited comparisons I've seen. I think unavoidable exposure and processing differences between one plate and the next are probably more important.
 

argentic

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I know potassium cyanide gives better results than hypo (wether ammonium or sodium). I do collodion wetplates and the cyanide gives a noticably better and warmer result. But I wonder what chemical process produces this effect (I'm no chemist). And couldn't another chemical product be found that does the same without being so toxic. I handle cyanide with gloves and reasonable precautions, and never had a problem. But why use extremely toxic chemicals if alternatives could be found.
 
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Photo Engineer

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Has anyone tried thiocyanate salts? They are quite non-toxic and are very good silver halide solvents. Thiourea would be another suggestion.

PE
 

smieglitz

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Ron,

I just looked at the MSDS for Kodak s-30 activator which is basically an ammonium thiocyanate solution with some (I assume) buffering agents in it. There's a warning there about contact with strong acids or oxidizers causing hydrogen cyanide to be liberated. But, the solution also contains 5-10% acetic acid. Would the relative difficulty in liberating cyanide as a hazardous decomposition product with the stabilizer/thiocyanate be comparable to potassium ferricyanide?

If it does readily dissolve silver iodide, is there any product that would be formed that might be insoluble and be trapped in the collodion film?

And while we are discussing such topics, another general reason why potassium cyanide is preferred over the thiosulfates is reputably that residual hypo more difficult to wash from collodion than whatever forms from the cyanide fixer. However, I've never actually seen any description or study investigating that statement. It may just be an urban legend from 1864 AFAIK. Is there an actual basis in terms of wash times that would give the edge to a cyanide fixer vs thiosulfate? Would a hypo clearing agent work with a collodion film with a glass or japanned substrate as used in the process to shorten the wash time? And, do you think the Kodak residual hypo test would be valid for use on collodion plates as well as photographic papers?
 

Photo Engineer

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Thiocyanates do not easily form cyanides. You just about have to beat on them with extreme heat, and before any cyanide forms, the actually form thioureas. So, you are safe from this route of decomposition.

Thiocyanates are active silver halide solvents and are the basis of some rapid fixers such as Kodak's C41 RA fixer. However, the "plastic" collodion is water repellant when dry and can resist removal of residual silver halide. Not being a wet plate photo buff, I cannot answer your questions except to say that thiocyanates and thioureas are similar in a general way to cyanide and are both silver halide solvents.

The strength of the bond or complex with silver is one of the rate determining steps in clearing out hypo and an other is diffusion of the materials. Wash rate is the third. Anything that speeds any step increases the process rate and decreases active process time. So, hypo clearing agents probably would work, but again, IDK, just an educated guess.

The residual silver test would probably work, but the residual hypo test will not work for thiocyanate or thiourea in quite the same way if at all. You would have to calibrate the color of the residue to form an opinion.

PE
 

Kirk Keyes

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Keep in mind that thiourea is considered a possible human carcinogen and mutagen.
 

Kirk Keyes

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One can ges you in a quick, somewhat painful death, and the other might get you in a long, drawn out, painful death. I'm not sure which is better...
 

Photo Engineer

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One can ges you in a quick, somewhat painful death, and the other might get you in a long, drawn out, painful death. I'm not sure which is better...

Actually, I don't know of any recorded human death attributed to thiourea. And, many plants produce it naturally. It is only considered a possible carcinogen.

PE
 

Ian Grant

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The human body produces Thiourea as well :D

A great many thins will kill rats or give then cancer despite their being a part of a healthy balanced diet or produced by our metabolism. After all Salt is a big killer but it's not banned.

Ian
 
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Kirk Keyes

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All true. But I do try to minimize external exposure when possible.
 

dr5chrome

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..lol :tongue:

There is no chlorine involved, just HCN or HydroCyanic Acid or Prussic Acid. It is lethal in very tiny doses and can be easily absorbed through the skin. It smells like almond oil and is rather pleasant as the last thing you smell!

Use it with great caution.

It is not normally used to fix normal Silver Halide emulsion coatings nor is it easily tested for exhaustion AFAIK.

BTW. Been nice having you here on APUG. Best wishes. :wink:

PE
 
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Potassium cyanide may not have killed any modern wet plate practitioners yet, but alternatives to it really ought to be thoroughly explored before anyone begins to seriously consider it, even as a last resort. Cyanide may be fast, clearing collodion in only a few seconds, but in the words of the old road safety slogan, surely it’s better to arrive alive, even if an alternative fixer takes slightly longer. I also wonder if the supposedly clearer highlights are worth the risk when more controlled and safer reduction could subsequently be undertaken with a more conventional reducer like potassium ferricyanide (which despite the apparently similar name, is classified as only a low toxic hazard, as long as it is kept away from concentrated acids).

PhotoEngineers’s constructive suggestions above regarding thiocyanate and thiourea really should be followed up.

Ammonium thiosulphate once used to be expensive and hard to find, which explains why my 1950s era Focal Encyclopedia of Photography recommends a 40% solution of ammonium thiocyanate with 5 per cent formalin as a rapid fixer. It is said to function in about 30 seconds or even less if it is used hot – up to 120 degrees F or 50 degrees C. It is also reported to have a low freezing point, taking only a few minutes to fix below 32 degrees F (0 C). Thiocyanate is not widely used for film because it softens gelatin excessively (the Focal Encyclopedia says to keep immersion times short); hence the call for formalin - nasty stuff, and unnecessary for collodion.

Grant Haist, Modern Photographic Processing, chapter on the fixing process, p. 596-598 provides more information on thiocyanates; i.e. you might want to use a two bath system, or fresh solution for each plate - there is a chance you might you get a water-insoluble opaque silver salt when the cleared emulsion goes into the wash.

Thiourea is also not much used for fixing film because it softens gelatin. However, once again, this should not be a problem for collodion, although clearing complexes could again be an issue, raised by Haist, p. 601-602. In deference to Kirk’s safety concerns, another safer suggestion follows.

Cysteine hydrochloride is an organic fixing compound I’ve experimented a little with a little since I first raised it in the monobath thread. PhotoEngineer cautioned to be careful of reticulation, but I’ve experienced no problems at all with Harvey A. Hodes cysteine monobath (see (there was a url link here which no longer exists)). It has a pH of only 9.8-10, and Hodes specifies temperatures for black and white film to 35 degrees C. Perhaps Photo Engineer’s caution was based on past experience with extremely rapid processing at very high pHs and temperatures, which, again, may not be a problem for collodion. However I am beginning to wonder if cysteine hydrochloride is really worth the trouble; going back to the patent I noticed that Hodes’ cysteine monobath has slightly longer processing times than his thiosulfate variant. I also tried Alan Fitterman’s cysteine fixer; at pH 6 (see (there was a url link here which no longer exists)), it seems to have been formulated for stability, and seems to me to have no particular advantage over a conventional sodium thiosulphate fixing bath. In its favour, on the other hand, cysteine hydrochloride is completely non-toxic (I bought 100g at a health food store), dissolves rapidly in water or a sodium hydroxide stock solution, and is then ready for immediate use, although an alkaline solution (which you need for rapid fixing) doesn’t seem to keep all that well. It does start to smell a little in a strong hydroxide solution, but is probably relatively innocuous compared to some of the other mercaptos. I don’t have any equipment for accurately measuring pH to pursue it further; but perhaps an alternative, safer, alkali, to sodium hydroxide might be preferable. I’m also not too sure how to assess film softening, other than through the highly scientific fingernail-film leader scratch test. Unlike film, in any case, softening at high pHs is probably not going to be a problem with collodion.

The classic comparative study of film clearing compounds is Haist, King, and Bassage ‘Organic Silver-Complexing Agents for Photographic Monobaths’ Photographic Science and Engineering, v. 5 no. 4 July-Aug 1961, p. 198-203. They found thiourea quite slow to clear at 70F (65 sec), reducing to 19 sec at 130F (pH 6.5 and 10.5 are virtually identical; higher pHs weren’t feasible because of fogging); cysteine hydrochloride is marginally worse than ammonium thiosulfate at pH 10.5 and 70F (44 vs. 33 secs) and marginally better at 130F (15 vs. 18 sec). These are all based on stock solutions of 0.25 molar; the film used was Kodak Fine Grain Positive Film. Ammonium thiocyanate wasn’t included in this study.

PhotoEngineer undoubtedly knows far more about fixing than me; but perhaps I could suggest that his Superfix, posted in the formulas section of APUG at (there was a url link here which no longer exists), may be worth a try with collodion. Perhaps PhotoEngineer could persuade Mark Osterman to try a sample of his next generation Superfix MMX (that’s 2010 in Roman numerals, or is past that yet:smile:?) the next time he meets him for lunch! In the meantime, perhaps it might also be worth trying a conventional ammonium thiosulphate rapid fixer concentrate mixed with a 40% ammonium thiocyanate solution. Even if it doesn’t completely match potassium cyanide, it, or some similar synergistically compounded rapid fix, is sure to be far safer.

Philip Jackson
 

Photo Engineer

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I may have mentioned that I had lunch with Mark last week, and the next lunch is on the 24th. So, if I can remember it, I will discuss it with him.

You can use thiourea and thiocyanate with hypo and the proper dilution. This is partly the basis of the C41 RA fixer AAMOF. I have never had success with Cysteine fixers due to reticulation even at room temp. But, my work continues, and I have a bottle of Cysteine here.

I have had extensive talks with Grant Haist and Jim King both, and worked with them on fixers and stabilzers. If you can get Research Disclosures, you may want to look up some of our joint thermally processed coating work. This was never patented AFAIK. Those and other disclosures may give you some ideas. :wink:

But, Phillip has it right. Better safe than sorry.

PE
 
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alexhill

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Thanks Philip Jackson for that awesome post. Great citations and everything. I wish most people posted like that.

Unfortunately, a lot of that went over my head. The spirits willing to try those suggestions, but I just don't have the know-how to make worthwhile experiments. That said, I have a bottle of potassium ferricyanide and would be willing to give it a go as a fixer with some guidance.
 

Kirk Keyes

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Alex - you can't use the ferricyande itself as a fixer. I think the idea is to use it as a bleach in conjunction with fixer.

Ferricyanide ion will react with silver metal and convert it to silver ferricyanide. Silver ferricyanide is soluble in fixer. This reaction acts as a reducer or a bleach for the silver image.

You could add a teaspoon of ferricyanide to a rapid fixer at film strength as a starting point to test. Bleach for a minute and see how it looks. (Keep in mind, I've never done this, or even wet plates, so experimentation will be needed.)

I think a second fix is needed after the bleach/fix solution to remove all the final traces of the bleached silver from the image.
 

richard ide

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The problem with Ferricyanide and fixer (AKA Farmers Reducer) Is that unless extremely dilute, It works very quickly and I think is non reversible.
 

Photo Engineer

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Ferricyanide alone is a bleach (with a tad of bromide) and acts rapidly. It can be reversed at this point by redevelopment. If it is followed by a fix, then the change is permanent.

Dichromate in sulfuric acid is a permanent bleach that cannot be redeveloped.

PE
 

smieglitz

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The main arguments for using KCN have to do with the rapidity of fixing, shorter wash times, and the warmer color. I think the latter is the primary reason a wetplater would choose KCN over off-the-shelf ammonium thiosulfate rapid fixers or plain hypo. That change makes the image cooler and I also believe the use of ferricyanide in addition to the thiosulfate produces such a cooling effect. At least that is my recollection from reducing some overexposed tintypes years ago. Then, if Kirk is correct, you'd have to use a second fixer to remove the silver ferricyanide and so processing becomes even more complicated. So why bother using it over just a regular rapid fixer?
 

Photo Engineer

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Mark Osterman's comments

Posted from an e-mail with permission!

Cyanide not only removes the unexposed halide, but given enough time it starts to dissolve the metallic image silver. If allowed to do this a little..there's a gain in contrast as the d-min areas open up. If allowed to continue..the image can be complete removed. Hypo will not do this, but if the plates are left longer in the hypo...they will lighten somewhat. Make sure the washing is complete...several minutes at least.

Hypo doesn't allow the silver to refract light the way cyanide does...so the color can be a dull grey. The other way to affect image hue is by development time..longer results in a cooler color. Developer additives can also change the final image tone. The acid restrainers; sulfuric acid, nitric acids with or without added silver make cooler, whitish tones. Organic restrainers: white sugar or honey, etc produce warmer tones. These viscous restrainers are more difficult to use..the developer must be applied by pouring along one edge very slowly for the best effect.
 
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alexhill

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Thats really interesting. I know I'm mashing apples and oranges together.. But if I were to add sugar to my developer, I could lighten the color of the silver? That was my original goal
 

dancqu

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A Correction

Ferricyanide ion will react with silver metal and convert
it to silver ferricyanide. Silver ferricyanide is soluble in fixer.
This reaction acts as a reducer or a bleach for the silver image.

By itself potassium ferricyanide will form with silver a complex of
silver ferrocyanide and it is insoluble.

P. ferricyanide is a strong oxidizer while thiosulfate based fixers,
if anything, are reducers. The two together have a very short
working life. A and B bath use is suggested. Dan
 

Cor

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Posted from an e-mail with permission!

Cyanide not only removes the unexposed halide, but given enough time it starts to dissolve the metallic image silver. If allowed to do this a little..there's a gain in contrast as the d-min areas open up.

..exactly, that is advantage number one! You'll get crispier plates because of the lower D min, and a a tool to open up over exposed plates (the room for this is limited, since wet plate is such a short scale process anyway)

Hypo doesn't allow the silver to refract light the way cyanide does...so the color can be a dull grey.

Indeed hypo gives the "dullest" plate, rapid fix a bit warmer, and cyanide the warmest, a cafe au lait colour..the other factors mentioned have a impact too
 

JPD

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Indeed hypo gives the "dullest" plate, rapid fix a bit warmer, and cyanide the warmest, a cafe au lait colour.

coffee-skull.jpg


If the colour is that important, why not frame it behind tinted glass instead of using a deadly poison?
 
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