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blansky

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Lots of you are old enough to remember the obligatory visit we had to make to someone's house back in the 60s/70s to see the vapid home movies of their recent trip to who cares.

Rarely was there enough liquor to get us through the first reel and god help us there were 3 more to go.

Ok so lately I've been wandering through the gallery here, spewing out comments on some of the work, which takes very very little liquor to get through. Some of it's excellent. I mean really really good.

But something I was noticing was the titles which I bitched about before. But this is sort of different. And it dawned on me why some of it bothered me. When I look at a picture I do the zen mind/beginner mind thing, which is initially just look at the picture and let it talk to me. Just receive it. See what it says. And absorb that. Then after that I do the active mind thing. I analyze it. What could be better, could a crop work, could more burning and dodging work. Which by the way is another bitch I have. If it's a gallery of work, why on earth do we have scans of negatives, and not finished retouched prints. Paraphrasing Ansel's words, "thanks for showing the the score, but I paid to hear the performance." Practice on you own time.

But anyway, back to the gallery. What bothers me is a couple of things. One is when someone was shooting something and they have an idea in their head and then they print it and show it, and they stick to the idea in their head, even thought the picture no longer shows that. A bad example: A photographer witnesses someone beating the shit out of someone, so they take out their camera and try to record it. By the time they get the shot the person is laying on the ground bleeding and the guy is walking away. And the shot shows a stranger bending down to help the guy. So the photographer makes a print and since he witnessed the scene he entitles it "Man's inhumanity to man". Except it sucks. Because the print doesn't show that to the view, it clearly shows, "The Good Samaritan". Someone leaning down to help.

The problem is the photographer is sticking to his initial witnessing, and emotional state of mind of the attack, and not to an evaluation of what the actual picture says to the viewer.

I see that in a number of pictures there. The mental state of what the photographer thought he shot, contrasted with what is actually shown. Two different things. I guess the photographer could say, yeah but that's not what I was feeling. Ok, well what you were feeling is sort of irrelevant to what you actually showed, so maybe you should accept the serendipitous magic of what you have here and celebrate it.

The other bitch I have is what I'll call travelogue pictures or postcards. The "here is my shot of such and such a bridge, or fountain, or church" or whatever, but what I find rather humorous, is a response of, "hey I passed through there last week".

The whole point of fine art (usually) black and white photography is to convey an emotion. The surrealism inherent in black and white is an alignment of the stars, that black and white pictures just have the capacity to reek of emotion. So when people name their pictures, Bobs Beach, or Big Ass Church, or whatever, they are immediately taking the viewer from an emotional state to an intellectual or analytical one. The exact thing a postcard does."Hey I should go there sometime." But the exact opposite of what a fine art picture should be doing.

In my opinion even a great fine art picture will drop like a rock the second, someone takes the viewer away from an emotional experience inside the picture to a dumbass description of where the hell the place is. I don't care about your travel budget, give me some bloody emotion. Move me, talk to me, but don't describe to me what your passport says.

It's like showing you Migrant Mother, then telling you it's an actress, gearing up for her scene in "I'm an Okie from Muskogee".

Immediate buzzkill.
 

MattKing

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You are assuming that "fine art" is what we are always intending.

But generally, I agree with you about the importance of titles.

I spend a fair amount of time around a number of regular participants in the local photo club scene. All those clubs are members of CAPA - the Canadian Association of Photographic Arts. CAPA runs training sessions and accredits photo judges, who then participate in CAPA competitions and CAPA affiliated competitions. Many of the people I know are both darkroom fans and accredited CAPA judges. They all tell me that they are not supposed to give much weight to titles, but I'm sure that titles do matter.

In my mind, titles are important because:
1) they identify photographs, and allow viewers to distinguish them from other photographs;
2) they can supply useful context;
3) in a small number of cases, they can render intelligible what would otherwise be a nagging mystery; and
4) in an even smaller number of cases, they add constructively to the humour of that which is supposed to be humourous.
 

mike c

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I can see your point about adding words to describe a Photograph but I think that most if not all of Ansel Adams and many more High Art photographers do have words printed underneath there photographs in there published books. So maybe this has a great influence on us.
 
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blansky

blansky

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You are assuming that "fine art" is what we are always intending.

But generally, I agree with you about the importance of titles.

I spend a fair amount of time around a number of regular participants in the local photo club scene. All those clubs are members of CAPA - the Canadian Association of Photographic Arts. CAPA runs training sessions and accredits photo judges, who then participate in CAPA competitions and CAPA affiliated competitions. Many of the people I know are both darkroom fans and accredited CAPA judges. They all tell me that they are not supposed to give much weight to titles, but I'm sure that titles do matter.

In my mind, titles are important because:
1) they identify photographs, and allow viewers to distinguish them from other photographs;
2) they can supply useful context;
3) in a small number of cases, they can render intelligible what would otherwise be a nagging mystery; and
4) in an even smaller number of cases, they add constructively to the humour of that which is supposed to be humourous.

Yeah, on this particular rant I was more referring to titles of place, postcards.
 

cliveh

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blansky;1953811661The surrealism inherent in black and white is an alignment of the stars said:
Why surrealism? Many black & white photographs can fall into other art genres.
 
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blansky

blansky

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Why surrealism? Many black & white photographs can fall into other art genres.

The surrealism is the assumption we don't see in black and white, so a black and white picture is not our reality, therefore surreal.

Obviously, not necessarily drastically so, but still outside of our reality somewhat.
 

cliveh

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The surrealism is the assumption we don't see in black and white, so a black and white picture is not our reality, therefore surreal.

Not if you are colour blind.
 

HiHoSilver

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'Not really qualified to opine, but I can sure as heck pay attention.

'Always had a hard time listening to descriptions of art, but I now take them more seriously. Apart from basic princicples, its still seems an attempt to verbally nail jello to a tree. What does seem to have meaning is someone's response - its says 'xxxxx' to me. Itss a respectable offering that acknowledges the subjectivity.

You bet your bippy (geezers know what that means) I want to make images that evoke emotions. My triggers are emotional portraits - usually candid or street. For others, natural grandeur and on and on.

It helps me to hear some of the effect of giving an image a title or description. I don't want to turn off a viewer 'cause their subjective hook was grabbed - but with a different framework in mind. 'Hearing their framework informs me of different things that others find interesting or evocative.

So I expect to make alot of images - and hope to regain and refine some competencies in printing. I'll have a body of work that is more mass consumption/universal appeal. I'll have some that I love & don't care if anyone else does. For the time being, I'm insatiable for the thoughts shared on my images - and on the images of others - good, bad & I seriously mean also the indifferent. (if it weren't for the xxx in the lower right, it would be a boring shot) Both inform me & improve the dance between my ears. On a good day, it shows in the next images.
 

mooseontheloose

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Not everyone has the objective of creating fine art, whatever that may mean to you. Not everyone has a darkroom. And/or some people provide scans to show works in progress or to gauge opinions. Also, many photographers here are at various levels of experience in their own work.

I do agree that most good photographs elicit some kind of emotion in the viewer, but obviously that's will be different for different people. I don't care about titles -- the image itself is what draws me to the photograph. After I've looked at it I'll look at the other information the photographer has provided (if any).

During the first photograph class I ever took my instructor hated titles - he felt it led the viewer down a pre-determined path of looking at and interpreting the photo. However, I'm not against them in any way, as Matt and Juan have noted, there are legitimate reasons to include them.
 

markbarendt

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Then there's the argument that one should only title a photo by place and date to allow the viewer to make what he or she will of the photo itself.
juan

I don't subscribe to that logic. IMO very few photo's can stand on their own without some context.

If I were a bit younger and found a copy of this photo in a shoe box, it wouldn't mean much to me, I might ask the owner of the shoe box "is that your dad?" or something like that.

http://www.karsh.org/#/the_work/portraits/humphrey_bogart
 
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I think perhaps there may be some degree of misunderstanding regarding just what the APUG Galleries are all about?

My understanding is they were originally created to be an informal place for the membership to share scans of what they had been up to recently with their film photography. I believe the original intent was to show each other various works-in-progress, new techniques tried, partially completed projects, test exposures and prints, and the like.

Completed works were always accepted, but certainly never required. It was more of a photographic insider sharing model. Photographers of all skill levels trading visual knowledge, much as they do verbal knowledge in the forum posts. Sort of like, take a look at my latest upload. That's what I meant when I described edge-burning.

This is also primarily why raw negative scanning is allowed. (Beyond the fact that very few have the equipment to directly scan prints larger than 8½x11, and large prints are all the rage these days.)

By comparison, I think the Portfolios section of APUG was intended to serve as the true best-of-the-best online gallery exhibition space. No edge-burning lessons there. Just the best final prints one could muster. That's the real place to show and buy and judge and be judged, if one is so inclined. The standards in that section are light years beyond the regular upload galleries.

Ken
 

TheToadMen

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(...)
The whole point of fine art (usually) black and white photography is to convey an emotion.
(...)
In my opinion even a great fine art picture will drop like a rock the second, someone takes the viewer away from an emotional experience inside the picture to a dumbass description of where the hell the place is. I don't care about your travel budget, give me some bloody emotion. Move me, talk to me, but don't describe to me what your passport says.
[/QUOTE]
Nice discussion. Thank you for sharing.
I can see your point and sometimes I agree. For instance when I view entries in a competition or an assignment for a series at the photo academy. Probably a fine image in itself, but often not relevant to the given theme or not fitting within the series of the assignment.

But there are other realities too, like documentary photography (photo journalism). An example. A photo of a man waving an American flag isn't special - I won't look twice or give it much thought. That waving happens almost every day in some parade somewhere in the USA. However, if the title tells me this is a man protesting during an official military parade in North Korea, it will evoke quite an other view and emotion for me.

BTW: I don't consider myself as an artist or a fine art photographer. I do like to be creative when I'm out shooting in the fields or on the streets. And I do like to make a fine (technical) print in the darkroom or with an alt-photo process. I loke wandering through the fileds with just one camera (LF or pinhole) and make only one or two shots on that trip - contemplating life while enjoying the hike.
And sometimes the printing is more important to me than the image itself - does that maybe make me a fine art printer instead - don't know yet ...

Bert from Holland
http://thetoadmen.blogspot.nl
 

removed account4

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lots of borhing and bahad stuff here ... and in every photography "gallery"
wether it is bricks and mortar or on the inter web.
it would be great if there was only high-caliber photography in the gallery here
print scans only, chromes perfectly saturated, moving images ..
but that isn't everyone's schtick. some folks show family snaps made with a 140year old lens
others holiday snaps with a 4000$ german lens still others memories from their last photographic outing or experiment.
as oh hum i am with scenics, there is always something interesting in the gallery here.

or maybe not ... YMMV
 
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blansky

blansky

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TheToadMen wrote
.....But there are other realities too, like documentary photography (photo journalism). An example. A photo of a man waving an American flag isn't special - I won't look twice or give it much thought. That waving happens almost every day in some parade somewhere in the USA. However, if the title tells me this is a man protesting during an official military parade in North Korea, it will evoke quite an other view and emotion for me.....




I agree about the documentary photography, and my rant wasn't really about that, because it's a distinct specialty, like say "Churches of the Midwest" or "Waterfalls of the World, where it would be a necessity to name your locations. There are photographers in the gallery now that are working on "projects" that ARE essentially documentaries, of people or places. But that's not really what I'm referring to.

I'm referring to some really nice pieces that are emotional, or could be, and they reduce their significance by introducing the analytical while I'm swimming in the emotion of the picture.

It's like having sex with a extremely hot chick, who thinks now is a good time to discuss marriage and children. SHUTTUP...I'M WOOOOKING Heeaaay.
 
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NedL

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Interesting thoughts. The tension between emotional response and analytical runs much deeper than just the title. I have an internal struggle to separate them and not let photography become a mechanistic technical exercise....

I like to look at old photographs in museums. Occasionally one will just knock my socks off, almost like I'm sucked into the picture or transported to that time and place. For a minute, I'm not standing in a museum looking at a photograph, but in the picture, or perhaps in the photographer's shoes. Like being immersed in a good novel. Sometimes these photographs are not very "good", but for whatever reason they grabbed me. But you've got a point: the photo with this powerful ability to leap over time are not usually the "postcards" of a fountain or a "big ass church". They usually encompass something wider and often something more human....
 

winger

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For the most part, I kinda agree with the OP. But I know I suck at titles and fall back on placename ones too much. And for the images that I love in the gallery, I doubt if I could remember a single title for any of them. When I think back, I see the image in my head, not the words.
 

Alan Klein

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Just two thoughts about this thread.

The human eye doesn't see color when it's dark. So what the brain sees when it witnesses in BW can be just as real and non-emotional as what it sees during the day when color reigns. The brain reformats scenes in all kinds of ways to interpret their meanings.

Captions are often used by photographers to make up for the absence of emotion and meaning in their photos. Catching emotion in a photo is hard.
 

removed account4

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i think part of the thing ( maybe i am wrong ) that blanksy is getting at
is the gallery is sometimes supposed to showcase something more than snapshots
and ofthen times we fill it with snapshots. for better or worse, because sometimes snapshots
are boring and just a .. snapshot, other times they are wonderful like elliott erwitt or hcb's work
which are perfect snapshots. and maybe in the new and upgraded apug gallery there can be check box of
some sort to signify print scans so if someone wants to filter out all the negative scans ...
the prints can live somewhere special so viewers can enjoy scans of physical objects
rather than inverted film ... that can happen, not saying that prints of boring snapshots aren't boring
or that film scans or inverted yadda yadda isn't good ..
but scans of finished prints show the photographer went the extra step if he or she could in the final destination
instead of getting off 4 exits early.
 
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