POP PAPER COATING

[Peter Schrager]

So it turns out that I was the owner of almost 2 full boxes of the Centennial printing out paper. I had kept them frozen for a special project that never happened. So what do you do? You start using the paper and create a project. I was always a great fan of Linda Conners work using this paper.
It was a gift from heaven to have the 2 boxes of paper because it gave me a baseline for working with the paper for the future
Using Denise Ross's book on emulsion making I settled on the recipe by Valenta on page 261and kindly added to the book by Denise from Radoslaw Brzozowski from Poland.
Always use an oversized piece of paper. I'm coating for 8x10 so I'm using 9x11 photo paper that I fixed out. The edges might frill.
No problem with the emulsion. I'm on my second emulsion batch now and the paper is drying so I will update that. I did double the emulsion so will have to wait to find out if I did ok.
Radoslaw does give a detailed explanation of how to get a paerfect coat using sheets of mylar between glass and the putting the emulsion on..then when it cools just add the paper and let it set. Afterwards I hang up the paper to dry and the mylar will just release by itself when dry.
Will update with pictures !!
POP PAPER IS ADDICTING!!

 

[Peter Schrager]

Just a quick addendum: best to dry the paper in an air conditioned room. It will take forever if it is hot and the humidity is high.

 

[mshchem]

I've been down that road. I had a setup in the basement of my old house. Fun, but I'm 30 years past that. There's no substitute for POP. With the advent of digital negatives I'm amazed that Foma, Adox or Ilford doesn't make a POP product.
I get my kicks with Foma and Ilford FB and toners, Gold still wins the first in show, but Selenium is hard to beat.
Have fun, make some Azo too. Don't know what you are using for paper but baryta coated paper would be nice.

 

[Peter Schrager]

I'm using baryta paper and rives BFK PAPER
Honestly I love the organic feel of making prints in the sun and coating my own paper. There is nothing that looks like POP paper and has a long scale. It would be great if someone made it but dont hold your breath
another update because I coated paper last night and tried using a few sheets and got bubbling and friling during washing. Never got bubbling before
But I'm thinking the paper needs to ripen a few days in between coating and printing
If anyone cares to chime I'd love to hear about this phenomenon
Have a great POP day!

 

[Photo Engineer]

If it does not get better after a few days, try the next batch with a hardener and to save this batch use a pre-hardener.

PE

 

[Peter Schrager]

You're saying a hardener in the fix?
What's a pre-hardener??

 

[dwross]

Peter, what development/fix/tone protocol are you using? It may not work to use a hardening fixer. Do I understand that you're not seeing bubbles until the wash water? Freestyle Photographic Supplies sells Heico Hardener as a hardening addition to NH-5 fixer, but it can be used alone as a straight hardener. It's nasty stuff, but handy to have around. Start with the tiniest bit in your first wash water. (Test it on scraps before you commit a big gorgeous print .) If you see a little improvement, but not enough, try a little more. The goal is the least amount necessary to do the job.

However, I'd love to know why you're getting bubbles. You shouldn't be on the Rives paper. If it's just the baryta, it may be that the paper has too hard a supercoat. And it may be humidity. Maybe your emulsion is never fully drying (??)
Good luck.

 

[Photo Engineer]

You're saying a hardener in the fix?
What's a pre-hardener??

Use a hardening fix or a prehardener.

The prehardener is used before development and is 5% or 10% Chrome Alum. Use for 5 minutes at 20C, then wash for 5 - 10 minutes at 20C and then process normally.

The hardening fix would be an acidic fix with Alum, that is Potassium Aluminum Sulfate.

PE

 

[mshchem]

The old Kodak reference books list recipe for prehardening solution. Was used before developer. For high temperature tropical development.
I use hardener for fiber base prints in fixer and after toning, otherwise prints stick to blotters or in my case to the belt of my beloved Pako dryer. Foma papers seem stickier than Ilford, purely empirical evidence, Foma makes lovely paper as does Ilford. With the hardener no problems with sticking and the prints look really nice, almost more finished, whatever that means.
When I was getting bubbles it was during coating. I was floating the paper

 

[dwross]

Something to remember here is that printing-out papers( POP) are not developed the same as developing-out papers. The image becomes visible during exposure, not during development. POP "developer" is plain water, which washes away excess density, much like with gum prints. This is followed by plain hypo or hypo + toner. I can't say (which isn't to say someone else doesn't know what throwing hardener willy-nilly into the process will do.

 

[Peter Schrager]

Peter, what development/fix/tone protocol are you using? It may not work to use a hardening fixer. Do I understand that you're not seeing bubbles until the wash water? Freestyle Photographic Supplies sells Heico Hardener as a hardening addition to NH-5 fixer, but it can be used alone as a straight hardener. It's nasty stuff, but handy to have around. Start with the tiniest bit in your first wash water. (Test it on scraps before you commit a big gorgeous print .) If you see a little improvement, but not enough, try a little more. The goal is the least amount necessary to do the job.

However, I'd love to know why you're getting bubbles. You shouldn't be on the Rives paper. If it's just the baryta, it may be that the paper has too hard a supercoat. And it may be humidity. Maybe your emulsion is never fully drying (??)
Good luck.

Denise I coated the rives bfk and got bubbles
Now mind you the time I costed it went just fine
Actually on one of the prints the bubbles disappeared and the print came out perfect
Routine: clear print in 3% ammonium chloride and 2% citric acid then tone in gold..then wash a little then fix (I also added some sodium carbon ate and sodiu msulfite.to the fix to make it more alkaline. I ve done it without wash after toning per instructions from Chicago albumen works... so my wash water was definately too hot and I had only coated the paper less than 24 hours before. I have more paper I coated and am giving it a few days to ripen.

 

[dwross]

Peter. Thanks for the details. Very interesting! Looking forward to hearing what protocol you settle on. It's all a Ven diagram with the sweet spot in the middle, for sure. Question: Have you tried plain water clearing? I'm curious what the differences in clearing bath additions are. (I can hear myself talking myself into heading back into the darkroom to play! I thought I'd promised myself to take the summer off ).

 

[Photo Engineer]

Having been through the POP process with Mark at GEM, I am quite familiar with it. And therefore, I can say that a prehardener, even just before the fix, or a hardening fix should not hurt. I say should, because none of us have ever seen that problem except in poorly hardened materials which were not POP.

PE

 

[Peter Schrager]

Peter. Thanks for the details. Very interesting! Looking forward to hearing what protocol you settle on. It's all a Ven diagram with the sweet spot in the middle, for sure. Question: Have you tried plain water clearing? I'm curious what the differences in clearing bath additions are. (I can hear myself talking myself into heading back into the darkroom to play! I thought I'd promised myself to take the summer off ).

Denise I have used plain water clearing and have gotten fine results; also no wash between tone and fix.. but this has been with my last of my centennial pop paper. It was good that I had this paper saved
Firstly I got to see how the process worked
Secondly I got to play around a bit with process
I'm certainly intrigued as these prints are beautiful and I've done platinum palladium cyanotype ziatype..each has its place but pop is certainly in it's own league
Thank you to both Ron and Denise for helping out. It's now been over 2 days since I've coated so tomorrow I will print again and report back

 

[Peter Schrager]

Update on the bubbles. it was surely due to processing in the hot temperature.(summer) not happening now that the water temp is much cooler.
Today I coated on a new paper. it is the Adox Baryta paper. it's drying now so waiting to see how this paper works out.
Rives BFK has the best results so far but it dries to a Matt or semi Matt finish; I prefer a gloss finish.hence I'm trying the Adox

 

[Peter Schrager]

Just a follow up on hardener and frilling
I've gotten the process down where I get virtually no frilling. I still prefer fixed out baryta paper for the gloss finish. I am adding 5ml of a 4% glyoxal solution to the emulsion. I turn the a/c way down and coat 15 sheets in one session. I've done several of these emulsions and all the processing has been in tap water and room temperature gold toner and fixer
I have read somewhere that the commercial papers were only coated at a certain time of year. My assumption is that it was done in the fall because of cooler weather

 

[Peter Schrager]

hey just checking in if anyone here is still doing hand coating of emulsions
update as I now get no frilling or bubbles when coating!!
it's summer again now so they could appear but hoping not!!

 

[Lachlan Young]

I have read somewhere that the commercial papers were only coated at a certain time of year. My assumption is that it was done in the fall because of cooler weather

In the case of Kentmere, immediately before routine servicing/ cleaning of the coating machine as the excess silver nitrate would contaminate the machine and need to be cleaned up.

 

[mshchem]

I haven't coated paper for 30 years. I'm getting the itch for salt printing. Last go around I coated a silver bromide gelatin emulsion. That paper behaved a bit like the Ilford Art 300. The Ilford product is a lot nicer

 

[Peter Schrager]

I haven't coated paper for 30 years. I'm getting the itch for salt printing. Last go around I coated a silver bromide gelatin emulsion. That paper behaved a bit like the Ilford Art 300. The Ilford product is a lot nicer

if you try coating on Pescia or Rives BFK; or Arches Platine you might be very surprised