PMK VS Pyrocat-HD Stuff

gainer · Jan 4, 2005

Yes, you can add a log relative exposure amount or a density amount without changing the shape of a curve. I think Sandy has done his job. All we need is to make 2 copies of the graph and lay one atop the other on a light box or a bright window to compare curve shapes.

jim appleyard · Jan 10, 2005

I've seen an advantage. I've found that my midtones are quite long in scale and it does show up on VC paper, even on generic Adorama VC. However, that's just an unscientific observation; only my opinion.

Donald Miller · Jan 10, 2005

I have seen an advantage with staining developers with VC materials. As previously stated, there is much better midtone and highlight tonal separation. The only staining developers that do not exhibit this characteristic are those with a green or yellow green stain. Developers that this would include would be ABC or PMK formulations.

Donald Miller · Jan 10, 2005

jdef said:
Donald,
Sandy's curves don't show the differences in midtones that you describe between PMK and Pcat, and suggest PMK might offer better highlight separation, depending on the subject. How have you measured these differences between pyro and catechol based developers, or between staining and non-staining developers?

Jay

I have exposed and developed negatives that were contact printed with a Stouffer step wedge. The films were Efke PL 100 and Tri X. I then printed these on Oriental Seagull VCFB and JandC Classic Polywarmtone and then read the resulting print densities with my Xrite 310 reflective densitometer. Hope that this helps.

Donald Miller · Jan 10, 2005

Jay, It has been some months since I did the testing. I will check to see if I still have the values somewhere. I will post them here if I locate them.

sanking · Jan 11, 2005

jdef said:
Donald,
Sandy's curves don't show the differences in midtones that you describe between PMK and Pcat, and suggest PMK might offer better highlight separation, depending on the subject.
Jay

PMK negatives show a lot of highlight compression from shouldering, the longer the time of development the more compression. Compression and separation are antagonistic concepts, i.e. if you have a lot of compression there will be less "separation" between tonal values. The "separation" in the highlights will always be better with Pyrocat than with PMK because the latter shoulders more.

What I said was that there may be some scenes with very high highlight values that will print better with PMK than with Pyrocat-HD (or with a traditional developer that does not shoulder). This should be very clear from the comparison curves I provided for PMK and Pyrocat-HD.

Sandy

Donald Miller · Jan 11, 2005

jdef said:
Thank you, Sandy. That's how I understood your post as well. Donald claims that staining developers give better midtone separation than non-staining developers, and that Pcat gives better midtone separation than PMK, neither of which I understood from your data, or my own experience.

Jay

Jay, Let me begin by saying that I don't consider a zone III density as belonging in the midtone classification. I would identify midtone densities as those that would reside in the Zone IV to Zone VI densities. If you will take the time to examine the curves that Sandy, DJ and others have posted on Apug, Unblinkingeye and other sites then you will clearly see that the effects of proportional stain begins to become noticeable in the densities that I have mentioned. In order for this effect to be measured with some degree of accuracy one would need to measure the density with the blue channel of a color densitometer or a UV channel on a densitometer (if so equipped). This does have a measureable effect on enlarging papers since the sensitometric sensitivity of the representative materials by Kodak, Forte, and Ilford clearly indicate that the materials are most sensitized by light in the "blue" spectrum. This becomes ever more noticeable when we depart from VC materials and move to graded materials. Beyond that, if you will consider for moment, the higher density and density ranges that we utilize in materials such as Azo then the effects of proportional staining become more pronounced. I realize that you are very enthused by the developer that you seem to be working with. I have not had the opportunity to try it. I probably would not entertain trying it myself since I am quite happy with what I am using. However, please understand, I do not have an agenda here and for that reason I find no benefit in debating this issue with you. This would be interesting if you had sensitometric data based on hard densitometric analysis. However I have not seen any instance where you have approached this from that orientation. I hope that this explains my position to your understanding.

lee · Jan 11, 2005

jdef said:
Donald,

If you don't consider zones 4,5,and 6 to be midtones, in a scale that covers 9 meaningful zones, then I suppose that's your prerogative, but these are important midtones to me. Jay

Jay,
I don't pretend to speak for Donald as he can do that very well for himself. But, the above quote is not what Donald said. This is his quote that I have pasted here:

"Let me begin by saying that I don't consider a zone III density as belonging in the midtone classification."

Misquoting anyone is not advancing the argument here.

lee\c

sanking · Jan 13, 2005

jdef said:
Donald,

I do have an agenda; to understand how these staining developers differ from one another, and how they collectively differ from non-staining developers, when used with either VC papers, or graded papers. Sandy has adressed that very question, excepting the comparison of staining, and non-staining developers, right here in this thread, with the "sensitometric data based on hard densitometric analysis" that you require. of your own.

Jay

At some point when I make it back home I will include a curve made with a print from a PC-TEA negative along with the curves made with the PMK and Pyrocat-HD negatives. This will allow anyone to compare the curves and draw their own conclusions as to which is in theory better, or perhaps better stated, which would be serve our needs in a given situation.

It is important to remember that any suggestion that a certain developer is superior to another only makes sense within a very tight framework in which we specify the film being used, the lighting conditions, the strength of the working solution and the intended printing medium. Even if we were to limit the use to VC papers there are still a wide number of possibilities that might tend to favor a particulr type of developer, of which the three broad categories are, 1) extreme shouldering-compensating developer such as PMK, 2) moderate shouldering developers such as Pyrocat-HD, and 3) traditional non-shouldering developer such as D76, Xtol or PC-TEA.

For example, with Tri-X 320 and subjects with a lot of extreme highlights and tonalities from Zone I to IX (or X if possible) PMK would definitley be my choice. For subjects of less extreme highlights, but with a full range of tonalities from Zone I to Zone IX I would prefer Pyrocat-HD over both PMK or a non-compensating developer, but for subjects withi reduced tonal range, say Zone II to VIII, my clear preference would be a traditional developer non-compensating type of develper.

However, we need to bear in mind that the differences are very small between developers so the best one, in my opinion, is the one we understand best.

Sandy

Thomas Bertilsson · Jan 13, 2005

Sandy,

I have read many of your posts, both at the MichaelandPaula forum and here, and every time you enlighten me.

"However, we need to bear in mind that the differnces are very small between developers so the best one, in my opinion, is the one we understand best."

Amen to that!

Thanks for your expertise and your willingness to share with the photo community. I, and I'm sure many others, appreciate your efforts!

- Thomas Bertilsson
Saint Paul, MN

sanking · Jan 14, 2005

jdef said:
Hi Sandy,

I
When you developed your negs to a CI of .7 to match the .52 negative printed on graded paper, did you measure the contrast of the .7 neg with the V filter of your densitometer? If so, do you remember what it was?

For that reason, I would not consider a staining developer a good, general purpose developer, for printing on VC papers. I know from experience that general purpose, non-staining developers like D-76, Rodinal, Xtol, and PC-TEA can handle very high contrast scenes with proper dilution, but it will be interesting to see your curves and compare them to Pat's. Maybe Pat will post his as well.

Jay

I measured both set of negative in Blue channel mode. A Visual reading would have no doubt provided a more accurate indicaton of the actual effective printing density of the negatives on VC papers, but the primary purpose of the tests I did was to evaluate the difference between graded papers and VC papers using a common reading.

To repeat what I stated earlier, if one wants to compare the characteristics of a staining developer with those of one that is non-staining, it is essential to be specific as to lighting conditions, film, and dilution of the developer. I just really don't believe that either or us has done enough comparison work to state with any degree of authority that traditional developers are better than staining developers as general purpose developers for printing on VC papers, or vice-versa, though I can theorize that one or the other might have an advantage in specific lighting situation with a given film.

Sandy

AlanC · Jan 14, 2005

Sandy,
You say that for subjects of reduced tonal range your clear preference would be for a traditional non compensating developer.
It would be interesting if you would care to name which one.

Alan Clark

sanking · Jan 14, 2005

AlanC said:
Sandy,
You say that for subjects of reduced tonal range your clear preference would be for a traditional non compensating developer.
It would be interesting if you would care to name which one.

Alan Clark

If I did not qualify the previous statement let me do so now. It was only meant to apply to subjects of reduce tonal range using films that have a fairly straight line curve, and when printing on VC papers. By a traditional developer I would mean something like D76 1:1 or Xtol, though PC-TEA would do just as well but with slightly bigger grain.

Sandy

sanking · Jan 14, 2005

jdef said:
Hi Sandy.

I didn't mean to seem authoritative, I simply stated a hypothesis. Isn't that how we refine our testing? I'll restate my hypothesis more clearly:

If a stained negative must be developed to a higher VCI than a non-stained negative to achieve a given print contrast on VC paper, then a staining developer would not be as effective as a non-staining developer, as a general purpose developer for printing on VC paper.

Jay

I don't follow the logic of your conclusion. Why would a staining developer be "less effective" than a non-staining one in the situation you describe above? It appears to me that in order to make this statement you must first define what you mean by the use of the term "effective", which may not mean the same thing to all persons in all situations. From my perspective, the most relevant issue is, "can we can adjust dilution, time and tempeature with the developer to create the contrast we need for printing on VC paper with the kind of tonal range we desire"? And the answer to that question is definitely yes in my experience, though you must do the work and calibrate the developer to your film and process. Of course, if you plot curves the sensitometry is a bit more complicated, but to be fair most people don't do that anyway.

And there are other issues as well. The impact of the stain on the printing characteristics of the media is only one of the relevant considerations involved in comparing staining-tanning type developers with traditional non-staining ones. Sharpness, ability to hold detail in extreme back-lighted situations, and grain-masking, are other things that come into play that must also be considered.

Sandy

Kirk Keyes · Jan 14, 2005

"If a stained negative must be developed to a higher VCI than a non-stained negative to achieve a given print contrast on VC paper, then a staining developer would not be as effective as a non-staining developer, as a general purpose developer for printing on VC paper."

And what is your definition of "less effective"? If you are trying to compress highlight values, then a yellow-stainging developer like PMK would be more effective.

Kirk - www.keyesphoto.com

Tom Stanworth · Jan 14, 2005

I hate to butt in and make a stupid remark, but I think it is simple.

Compare and contrast. If you like it, it is good. If you prefer it (regardless of why) it is better. As Sandy points out, one cannot seperate out the variables as they are inter-related. Along with that stain comes highlight compensation, greater acutance for given grain size etc. I have said on a number of occassions that I am not going to use pyrocat at all costs (ie if I cannot get the look I want out of low contrast scenes) but interject because this seems to have decended into "if a cat had wings would it be better at flying than a dog with flippers would be at swimming?". Regardless of what VCI a neg is dev'd to, if, for example, it has finer grain than the conventional neg, greater sharpness and better (subjective) tonality and seperation, it is better in those areas. However, it may be worse. One cannot say 'all things being equal', because they are not. It is like saying if "If Fp4 plus had the grain of Tmax 100, but was still a conventional film of ISO 125.......would it be better than Tmax?" It cant be! I'm sure you know what I am trying to say!

I'll go for what I like and it may or may not be pyrocat for evreything, I'm undecided, but it will certainly be pyrocat when I want those things we attribute to it, control of highlights, ultra sharpness.
Tom

gainer · Jan 14, 2005

Jay, I hate to tell you this, but the stain image does add contrast, even on VC paper. Just not as much as it does on graded paper or other printing material. Furthermore, it makes possible a greater change of contrast on VC paper by use of blue or magenta filtering than with non-staining developers. Consider the following experimnt: develop a negative in, say, PMK and bleach out the silver part of the image with Farmer's or color blix. There will be a stain image remaining. In order for that image to reduce contrast, it would have to be a positive image. Even though it will appear quite weak, it is still a negative from which one can get a print on a high contrast graded paper or on VC paper. You could try this experiment. I have.

aldevo · Jan 14, 2005

So if the image stain does add appreciable density for VC printing - what role does the color of the stain play?

For example, is it true that a brown-staining developer (e.g. DiXactol or Pyrocat-HD) would add more printing contrast to a VC paper than a green-staining developer, such as PMK?

At first guess I would think so since the greenish stain might allow more greenish light to strike the green-sensitive, lower-contrast emulsion of the paper than a brownish stain.

sanking · Jan 15, 2005

jdef said:
Pat,

if what you say is true, how do we account for Sandy's example of a negative with a VCI of .6+ printing on G2 VC paper, when a non-stained negative with a CI of .52 would print on the same grade?

Jay

Perhaps it may be explained by the fact that the reading that indicated a CI of .6 + was made in blue channel mode, which as you know is an arbritrary color to use for the measurment since the effective printing density of a VC paper is not the same as the CI suggested by a densitometer reading made in blue.

What we need to find, it seems to me, is a color filter that could be used to more closely approximate the actual printing density of a stained negative on VC papers. I gather that such a filter would pass a high percentage of Visual light in the Green but also a fair amount of Blue, perhaps weighted about 60%-80% toward the Green. This would not solve the sensitometry issue 100% for VC papers but I think it might be useful for most normal lighting situations.

Sandy

sanking · Jan 15, 2005

aldevo said:
So if the image stain does add appreciable density for VC printing - what role does the color of the stain play?

For example, is it true that a brown-staining developer (e.g. DiXactol or Pyrocat-HD) would add more printing contrast to a VC paper than a green-staining developer, such as PMK?

At first guess I would think so since the greenish stain might allow more greenish light to strike the green-sensitive, lower-contrast emulsion of the paper than a brownish stain.

The major complication is that VC papers are sensitive to light in both the blue end of the spectrum (which is the higher contrast) and green (lower contrast). There is no question but that the greenish-yellow stain of PMK (and other pyrogallol developers that I have tested) allows more of the green light to strike the lower contrast green sensitive part of the paper emulsion. his is the primary reason why prints made on VC papers with PMK negative shoulder more than do prints made with Pyrocat-HD negatives. There is also no question but that the brown stain of Pyrocat-HD (and other pyrocatechin based developers that I have used) adds more printing contrast to processes that are primarily sensitive to blue or UV light (but not green) than does the green stain of pyrogallol based developers.

What has not been very fully explored is the exact role played by VC filters in the way they interact with the stain. Lots of room for experimentation in this area in my opinion.

Sandy

Jon Shiu · Jan 15, 2005

re: filters and pyro
I have a neg that printed with most contrast with a #3.5 ilford filter. 4, 4.5, 5 were all less contrasty (or close to same) prints! HP5+ in WD2D+, condenser light, Ilford MGIV paper.

Jon

Kirk Keyes · Jan 15, 2005

sanking said:
What we need to find, it seems to me, is a color filter that could be used to more closely approximate the actual printing density of a stained negative on VC papers. I gather that such a filter would pass a high percentage of Visual light in the Green but also a fair amount of Blue, perhaps weighted about 60%-80% toward the Green. Sandy

Sandy - I think you may already have the filter you are describing for this. Did you get the "Ortho" filter with your D200-II? This is pretty close to what you described above. A lot of blue with a good amount of green.

Or, perhaps, a Wratten Cyan CC filter. Perhaps a CC50C or even stronger. The Wratten #44A Light Blue-Green (aka Minus-Red, which means cyan) would be a strong version of the CC filter.

A couple more that may be a good match - Wratten #11 or #13 yellow-green filters or the Wratten #38 light blue or #38A Blue with extended green.

And if you really want to be daring, the old Kodak Grade 3 Polycontrast printing filter is close to this requirement.

If you guys don't have one, I suggest getting a copy of the Kodak Filters for Scientific and Technical Uses book. Once you figure out what wavelength you are interested, you just have to flip through the pages and look at the little absorption diagrams. Look for a filter with a center peak in the 480-500 range...Very handy and quick.

Kirk - www.keyesphoto.com

Kirk Keyes · Jan 15, 2005

Oh, I forgot to mention - none of the filters I suggested above will account for the fact that the ratio of blue and green light in some stained negs is changing with density...

sanking · Jan 16, 2005

Kirk Keyes said:
Oh, I forgot to mention - none of the filters I suggested above will account for the fact that the ratio of blue and green light in some stained negs is changing with density...

Kirk,

I only have the Blue, Visual and UV tubes for the Gretag D200-II, not the Ortho. But some of the other filters you suggest may provide a productive path for experimentation.

As you say, no filter will account for the fact that the ratio of sensitivity of blue:green, and the consequent shoudering in the upper middle tones and highlights, changes with density.

Sandy

sanking · Jan 19, 2005

Jon said:
re: filters and pyro
I have a neg that printed with most contrast with a #3.5 ilford filter. 4, 4.5, 5 were all less contrasty (or close to same) prints! HP5+ in WD2D+, condenser light, Ilford MGIV paper.

Jon

Am I reading this right? Your WD2D+ negative printed with more contrast with a #3.5 VC filter than with a #4, #4.5 and #5? And did you verify the results with a second printing?

Assuming John's experience can be repeated, anyone have an idea why this might happen?

Sandy

PMK VS Pyrocat-HD Stuff

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