Plastic reel agitation issues

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Hello all

Two questions about issues when developing in a Paterson Super System 4 tank with 2 reels and 120 film, using inversion agitation.

a) Surge (cavitation) marks, do they always appear on the same edge of the film, like at the upper edge of the reel?

b) Air bubbles, do they also occur on the lower reel with inversion agitation? Since the agitation is the air rushing through the developer, I imagine that the air bubbles can get stuck on both reels.


All the best to everyone.
Michael
 
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MattKing

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I've never had issues with surge marks with my Paterson Super System 4 tank with 2 reels and 120 film, although I am usually using the AP/Samigon/Arista Premium clone versions of those reels - the ones with the wider loading ramps.
And in years of use, I've only observed air bell problems once. I think, that the air bells came from the top of the top reel, but I'm not absolutely sure.
FWIW:
1) I always fill the tank with the suggested amount - 1 litre - of developer. I do that even if I'm developing a single film. I use replenished developer, so there is no concern with waste;
2) during the development stage, I start with 30 seconds of continuous, alternating direction rotary agitation. For the rest of the development stage, I use inversion agitation of 5 seconds every 30 seconds. My agitation movement involves both inversion and rotation and is sufficiently energetic that I can feel and hear the developer gurgling and tumbling through the reels.
Our water here is quite soft, and I am careful to ensure that my reels are clean - I never put Photoflo on my reels.
 

Alan9940

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IMO, Paterson's recommendations for total solution volume are too low. For example, they recommend 290ml for the single roll 35mm tank; I typically use about 400ml. Try using more developer volume and see if that helps.
 

Sirius Glass

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Air bells can be eliminated by thumping the tank on a hard rubber pad several times each new chemical is poured in AND filling the tank to completely cover the top film.
 
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Thank you for your replies.

I get air bells on both reels. It's not surge marks. No amount of rapping/thumping/hitting the tank dislodges them. So a combination of the water available to me and Paterson reels is just not working.

I'm now switching to stainless steel, don't have any issue loading them etc.
 

Nitroplait

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Good steel reels are so much easier to load with 120 than in Paterson reels.

Many years ago I had occasional marks from (what I think was) air bubbles.
I introduced a 3 min. water pre-wash and the problem disappeared.

I don't know for certain if there was a correlation, if it was a coincidence or even if it is still needed with my current procedure, but it has become part of my developing routine and I imagine it helps with the temperature stability as well, so no need to change that.
 
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pentaxuser

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Thank you for your replies.

I get air bells on both reels. It's not surge marks. No amount of rapping/thumping/hitting the tank dislodges them. So a combination of the water available to me and Paterson reels is just not working.

I'm now switching to stainless steel, don't have any issue loading them etc.

Can we take it that these airbells or marks that look like airbells are definitively on the film i.e. you have looked at the film on a light table with a loupe and the marks are there?

If they are there can you take pics of the negatives with a digital camera or iphone and let us see them?

This is not a challenge but simply an attempt to discover if possible what the problem. As others have said airbells have not been a problem with Paterson plastic tanks and reels so like them I am curious as to why it remains a problem for you. We may still be able to help with your help

Just one further question: Do you rap the bottom of the tank on a solid surface after every inversion cycle?

I tend to. Airbells have a tendency to form mostly after the first inversion cycle but I have always rapped after each cycle on a "belt and braces" basis

Thanks

pentaxuser
 
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Can we take it that these airbells or marks that look like airbells are definitively on the film i.e. you have looked at the film on a light table with a loupe and the marks are there?
Yes.

This is not a challenge but simply an attempt to discover if possible what the problem. As others have said airbells have not been a problem with Paterson plastic tanks and reels so like them I am curious as to why it remains a problem for you. We may still be able to help with your help
I guess that it becomes an issue to a very few Paterson users. Luckily, most don't have this issue.

Just one further question: Do you rap the bottom of the tank on a solid surface after every inversion cycle?
Yes.

I'm not pursuing this any further, since it seems to be an exclusive issue with me, and I've decided to go with stainless steel instead.

Thank you you reply.
 

xkaes

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For what it's worth, besides never having air bubbles with Paterson and similar plastic tanks and reels -- I NEVER rap a plastic tank on a hard surface. I simply rap it on the bottom with the palm of my right hand.

If someone does have a problem, I take the earlier suggestion of a water bath but add a few drops of Photo-Flo. Then turn up the Rap Music and go to town for 30 seconds.
 

MattKing

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Sometimes I wonder if air bells might be due to there being too much air in the water used to dilute developer.
If people are diluting stock developer immediately before use, it may pay to let the diluting water sit for some time before adding it to the stock. You could also boil the water ahead of time to drive the air out, but then you would also need to wait for the water to cool.
 

Steven Lee

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Sometimes I wonder if air bells might be due to there being too much air in the water used to dilute developer.

Agreed. Tap water is such a huge wild card, and can cause so many issues, that I always recommend distilled water for everything except the wash step.

Speaking of surge marks. One way to get them is to pour out active developer slowly at a gentle angle. Very easy to reproduce with C41, but a B&W process with less than 5 minutes can do this as well. You'll get surge marks on shots located closer to the outer grooves on one side of the tank. To avoid those pour developer out holding the tank at a 90 degree angle.
 

pentaxuser

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I'm not pursuing this any further, since it seems to be an exclusive issue with me, and I've decided to go with stainless steel instead.

Thank you you reply.
That's fine as long as you have used stainless steel tanks and do not have airbell problems with them. I must admit to being unsure as to whether this was the case. All I could work out from what you said was that you were switching but not that you never had airbell issues with film on a stainless steel reel in a stainless steel tank

pentaxuser
 

Maris

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I used to get the occasional air-bell years ago but none at all when I started pre-washing the film before pouring the developer (quickly!) into my Paterson System 4 developing tanks. Actually I use four changes of water before the developer in order to wash out the dyes in the film. Ilford suggests prewashing is not necessary but since I use replenished Xtol the dyes have to go out otherwise they would accumulate in the replenished Xtol stock. The lack of air-bells is a side benefit. And I use at least 10% more developer volume than Paterson suggests to fend off surge marks.
 

mshchem

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Agreed. Tap water is such a huge wild card, and can cause so many issues, that I always recommend distilled water for everything except the wash step.

Speaking of surge marks. One way to get them is to pour out active developer slowly at a gentle angle. Very easy to reproduce with C41, but a B&W process with less than 5 minutes can do this as well. You'll get surge marks on shots located closer to the outer grooves on one side of the tank. To avoid those pour developer out holding the tank at a 90 degree
Sometimes I wonder if air bells might be due to there being too much air in the water used to dilute developer.
If people are diluting stock developer immediately before use, it may pay to let the diluting water sit for some time before adding it to the stock. You could also boil the water ahead of time to drive the air out, but then you would also need to wait for the water to cool.
Super important point. Air dissolved in water is a pain. I have an RO system, I fill 4 liter jugs from the RO tap and let it sit for a few days. The air comes out of solution and forms bells on the inside walls of the PET jugs, a couple good jolts and the air comes to the surface.
My tap water is under enough pressure that air is an issue. Washing film or paper can be an issue as well. Air collects on the print surface when agitation is inadequate.
 

foc

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Sometimes I wonder if air bells might be due to there being too much air in the water used to dilute developer.

I agree also. Some water taps/faucets have what appear to be mini multi jets which can cause the water to foam and so trap air in the liquid.

I must admit I never had airbells in all the years I developed B&W. I never banged the tank but I did gently stir the water in the mixing cylinder and leave it for about 15-20 minutes before finishing the developer and water mix.
 
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Air bells can be eliminated by thumping the tank on a hard rubber pad several times each new chemical is poured in AND filling the tank to completely cover the top film.
I'm did that, and some of the air bells was on the bottom reel. No atter how hard, within reason, or banged, rapped etc. the air bubbles would cling to the top of the reels. The only way I could get rid of the bubbles was to use the stirring/twizzle stick, but this gives uneven development of the edges and center of the film.

That's fine as long as you have used stainless steel tanks and do not have airbell problems with them. I must admit to being unsure as to whether this was the case. All I could work out from what you said was that you were switching but not that you never had airbell issues with film on a stainless steel reel in a stainless steel tank

pentaxuser
No air bells with the stainless steel reels I borrowed from a friend.

This is an image from one of the films developed with the Paterson reels, showing the air bells. This is the worst example I got, most of the films had a lot less marks.

airbells.png



One of the rolls developed in stainless steel, the whole roll was just the clouds, and no airbells. Other test films (white wall indoor so even exposure of the whole frame) also show no marks.

noairbells.png



And never use sparkling water.
Hehe ;o)

I used to get the occasional air-bell years ago but none at all when I started pre-washing the film before pouring the developer (quickly!) into my Paterson System 4 developing tanks. Actually I use four changes of water before the developer in order to wash out the dyes in the film. Ilford suggests prewashing is not necessary but since I use replenished Xtol the dyes have to go out otherwise they would accumulate in the replenished Xtol stock. The lack of air-bells is a side benefit. And I use at least 10% more developer volume than Paterson suggests to fend off surge marks.
I tried with and without pre-wash, with and without wetting agent, still got air bells no matter what with Paterson reels.

I agree also. Some water taps/faucets have what appear to be mini multi jets which can cause the water to foam and so trap air in the liquid.

I must admit I never had airbells in all the years I developed B&W. I never banged the tank but I did gently stir the water in the mixing cylinder and leave it for about 15-20 minutes before finishing the developer and water mix.
The D-76 stock is always resting 4-5 days after mix from powder. The working solution is being tempered, takes anything from 15 min to an hour, depending on ait temp. I'm mixing stock and water gently with a stirrer, and waiting to ensure all air bubbles ahve left the developer.

The reason for not trying to "fix" this issue is that I five years ago had the same experience with other brand new Paterson reels, so it must be something in my environment which causes the issues. Instead of spending too much time, film and chemicals trying to fix it, it is more efficient to use stanless steel instead. I just wan't reliable results, and I'm not religious about how I get them, as long it follows the path of least resistance. I prefer to make images, not to tinker with chemicals ;o)

When I tested tap water, it was filtered through a Paterson water filter, and left to settle down. But normally I use demineralised water for the developer.

Once again, thank you all for your kind help.

/michael
 
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I keep saying this. Agitating with the little stick that comes with a Paterson tank rids your film and reels of air bells. I only do it for the initial agation after pouring developer in, inversion afterwards.
 

warden

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This is an image from one of the films developed with the Paterson reels,

View attachment 313035
Michael, I developed a roll of 120 TMax400 yesterday and got the same air bells that you show above. In my case:
1 minute pre-soak
Patterson plastic reels
500ml fluid
Ilfosol 3
10 sec agitation each minute
Quick pour and immediate initial agitation


I'm going to try a good scrub of the reels and also increase developer to 550ml and report back.
 
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