Plastic bottles that stop air ingress

Alan Johnson · Mar 8, 2017

I recently bought the illustrated bottle of 20+ years old Rodinal. I get the age from it coming with an instruction sheet listing times for Panatomic-X and Ilford PanF (not the Plus version). The contents were measured as 500ml, equal to that specified on the container, so it was probably unused.A film was developed in it diluted 1:50, it works like new.The graduated cylinder contains Rodinal concentrate from the Agfa container.
From the pic, the color is still light for Rodinal, showing that after 20+ years it has hardly oxidized.
Seems the manufacturers plastic bottles do a good job in keeping out air and preventing oxidation, at least in this case.

Pioneer · Mar 8, 2017

Reminds me. I am running low.

Gerald C Koch · Mar 8, 2017

Agfa was aware of the difficulty involved with using a container other than glass. The solution was a composite bottle comprised of more than one layer of different materials. On the bottom of the bottle there may be an SPI code of 7 (the number in the little triangle). If not then below the triangle the letters "PE PA" meaning in this case a composite bottle made of polyethylene AND polyamide plastics.

The color of the developer also reflects on Agfa's desire to produce a quality product. Nothing like the tarry- black color of some of the Rodinal clones. Quality product in a quality container.

Ian Grant · Mar 8, 2017

My Rodinal never got to that colour, I used it too fast But even darker and it's still OK,

I use old Rodinal and Ilford dev bottles there's no issues with them, I really like the2,5 litre high density plastic bottles that my lab chemical suppliers switched to for concentrated acids etc. Virtually unbreakable, a thick wall about 1/8th inch way better than the glass Winchesters.

Ian

Alan Johnson · Mar 8, 2017

Yes Gerry, you are right, it is a PE PA bottle. Are some manufacturer's bottles a different plastic I wonder.

Gerald C Koch · Mar 8, 2017

Alan Johnson said:
Yes Gerry, you are right, it is a PE PA bottle. Are some manufacturer's bottles a different plastic I wonder.

I had to dig about in my photography closet and found a bottle of Classic F 09. Have no idea who made it the label does not say. It is in a HD polyethylene bottle and is the color of old dirty motor oil. It was dark when I got it new. I have saving it to try and see if it still has any activity left.

Having made my own rordinal from the Photo Lab Index formula the result depends on the quality of the PAP. Usually this stuff is dark brown. Purifying it with decolorizing charcoal then reprecipitating the free base results in a pale tan product. Rodinal made from this will be a lavender or purple color.

Ian Grant · Mar 8, 2017

The Classic brand was Fotoimpex sold in the US by J&C, their RO9 was made by Calbe. However John at J&C decided ti repackage and sell as Rodinal closely imitating the Agfa Rodinal labelling. He disappeared not long after that.

It's because of John at J&C registering the Rodinal trade name in the US that the name can't be used now. the problem is Agfa had let it lapse.

Ian

AgX · Mar 8, 2017

That bottle is maximal 22 years old.

AgX · Mar 8, 2017

Gerald C Koch said:
If not then below the triangle the letters "PE PA" meaning in this case a composite bottle made of polyethylene AND polyamide plastics.

I never ever saw here in Germany a logo indicating a composite-material container.

Gerald C Koch · Mar 8, 2017

AgX said:
I never ever saw here in Germany a logo indicating a composite-material container.

I don't know what the regulations are in Germany but here in the US the recycling code is actually molded into the base of the bottle. Here is an article.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recycling_codes

AgX · Mar 8, 2017

Here too, but I only saw "plain" designations so far.

(And the possibilities for composite containers are countless.)

Gerald C Koch · Mar 8, 2017

Recycle codes are intended for recyclers. I assume the 'O' or OTHER code results in such bottles being discard as unrecyclable. Hence there is no further need to make any distinction as to just what OTHER means. Such plastics may also wind up as park benches and faux lumber where the exact nature of the material is unimportant.

silveror0 · Mar 8, 2017

FWIW, this discussion of keeping qualities has prompted me to check the bottle types used for a variety of my chems.

PE: Ilford Rapid Fix, Ilfospeed, Multigrade Print Developer

HDPE: Ilford Selenium Toner, Kodak HC-110 (old 500ml size), Kodak PhotoFlo, PhotogFormulary Liquidol film/paper developer

Most are still unopened and I didn’t open to check color. I’ve found the keeping life (even unopened) of Ilford MG Developer to be pitifully short, so I’ve just ordered some Liquidol for future printing. I have high hopes for Liquidol, since it was developed by our own member (Photo Engineer) who collaborated with Bill Troop (of Darkroom Cookbook fame) and who claims it’ll last for years in unopened bottles, 6 months in opened bottles, even as long as 48 hrs in an open tray and has print quality much like Dektol. He has confirmed to me that decanting the concentrate into smaller bottles is unnecessary.

darinwc · Mar 9, 2017

What about the lid seal? Some have a cardboard circle in the lid. Not sure if that is good or not. My bottles of rodinal always end up crushed by air pressure. So there must be some kind of reaction to the air. And that would create a vaccum that would suck in more air.. sorry not an expert in these things, just conjecture.

Alan Johnson · Mar 9, 2017

Yes, air contains 21% oxygen which, if initially in the airspace, would slowly be used up by reacting with the sulfite in the developer causing the sqeezed appearance of the container.

tezzasmall · Mar 9, 2017

Alan Johnson said:
I recently bought the illustrated bottle of 20+ years old Rodinal. A film was developed in it diluted 1:50, it works like new.

Hi Alan,

I am aware of the keeping properties of Rodinal but I'm surprised no one else has asked...

With the price of Rodinal being not that expensive and what with the stories we hear about precious films / frames on film, not coming out in old developers, WHY did you buy such an old bottle to use rather than a new bottle of it?

Asking with curiosity.

Terry S

Alan Johnson · Mar 9, 2017

Hi Terry,
I bought it at a house clearance for about 1/8 the new price and as you say Rodinal is a known good keeper.
When I saw the instruction sheet was so old I thought it would be interesting to take a closer look at the contents.

Gerald C Koch · Mar 9, 2017

I have a bottle of Rodinal that is more than 10 years old. At the price quoted I would have bought several more bottles. It's seldom that one come across a genuine bargain this is one of them.

Ricardo Miranda · Mar 9, 2017

Alessandro Serrao said:
Newer Rodinal/Adonal hasn't the legendary keeping quality of the original Rodinal, sadly!

How do you know that?
Have you had it for more than 20 years?
I use mine faster than any deterioration would be seen: a 500ml bottle only lasts for 9 months max before it is empty.

Anyway, if you have a bottle of Rodinal for 5+ years, what the hell are you doing not to use it?
That means to me: you aren't using film frequently, are you?

Alan Johnson · Mar 9, 2017

Alessandro Serrao said:
Newer Rodinal/Adonal hasn't the legendary keeping quality of the original Rodinal, sadly!

Well. that is rather a controversial statement, it seems to have encouraged StoneNYC to start his new Rodinal testing project, and there is no prospect of any conclusion for the time being.See post 113:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

NB23 · Mar 9, 2017

I use Blazinal (available in canada) and it is the same.

Harry Stevens · Mar 9, 2017

Ricardo Miranda said:
Anyway, if you have a bottle of Rodinal for 5+ years, what the hell are you doing not to use it?
That means to me: you aren't using film frequently, are you?

Well I have 4 other developers besides the Rodinal to hand.....

Leigh B · Mar 9, 2017

Alessandro Serrao said:
Because I've noticed loss of development action just 1.5y after being the bottle used for the first time.

Then you're a member of a very distinct and unique minority.

I've gotten normal results from very old (decades) Rodinal, as have numerous other users.

-Leigh

Gerald C Koch · Mar 9, 2017

So many things can effect how a developer keeps. If course there is the bottle but often not considered is the cap. A few years ago some Ilford developers had a bad reputation for not keeping well. The problem was caps that didn't seal well.

Ricardo Miranda · Mar 9, 2017

Harry Stevens said:
Well I have 4 other developers besides the Rodinal to hand.....

So do I! Foma and Ilford developers are also very good.

Plastic bottles that stop air ingress

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