Pink snow with Velvia 50

ITD · May 21, 2018

Hi, can anyone explain why the snow in this scene comes out pink? I'm no expert with either transparencies in general or Velvia in particular, so have no idea if this is normal or if I should have done something to avoid it - like use a different film for instance. I quite like the look, but it looks very different to how I remember it!

Thanks

Paul

Alan Edward Klein · May 21, 2018

Pink snow on Velvia 50 is good. Where was the sun?

Snowset by Alan Klein, on Flickr

Trail Images · May 21, 2018

Hello Paul, this is a bit typical of Velvia. Very easy to fix in Photoshop and other post processing programs. This is a magenta cast, red & blue, which is normal for Velvia under certain conditions. I use nothing but Velvia 50, so, I also like the look, but make changes to eliminate most of the obvious cast. There are many ways to eliminate or bring the cast down to your preference if your familiar with using PS. The simplest is to open a Curves Layer and use the white eye dropper on the snow. It will make a drastic change. You can dial down the opacity of the layer to your preferred look in the end.

ITD · May 21, 2018

Alan Edward Klein said:
Pink snow on Velvia 50 is good. Where was the sun?

This was taken last year so my memory is a bit poor. I think from other shots on the roll that the sun was to the right of me and slightly behind - the shadows seem to back that up too

Trail Images · May 21, 2018

This was 4x5 Velvia 50 image. It had a magenta cast that I changed in PS. There is still a taste of pink in the snow. And, I like the amount of magenta left. The sunrise was directly behind me.

ITD · May 21, 2018

Trail Images said:
This was 4x5 Velvia 50 image. It had a magenta cast that I changed in PS. There is still a taste of pink in the snow. And, I like the amount of magenta left. The sunrise was directly behind me.

I like that look, I'll have to learn how to do that

ITD · May 21, 2018

So, is this just a thing with Velvia? Would for instance Provia given me a more realistic representation?

destroya · May 21, 2018

velvia 50, I found, as it ages develops a magenta cast in the whites. because of that I use my older 50, mostly the original RVP, for sunsets as it kinda hides the effect but adds to the scene as well.

Provia is a colder film in my mind, so you will get bluer shadows. In a few of my snow picts shot on provia, if I remember right, did have a cooler or bluer hue to them. I always shoot provia 100 with an 81a or b filter

MattKing · May 21, 2018

A UV filter will help as well. Snow scenes often have a lot of UV around - we can't see it but the film can.

Trail Images · May 21, 2018

destroya said:
Provia is a colder film in my mind, so you will get bluer shadows. In a few of my snow picts shot on provia, if I remember right, did have a cooler or bluer hue to them. I always shoot provia 100 with an 81a or b filter

The only time I've used Provia over the years it had a tendency to go blue on me too. Again, it can be corrected as mentioned with the 81 filters or in post processing cast removal. As a general comment I guess you could say Provia is a bit "tamer" then Velvia 50........

Poisson Du Jour · May 21, 2018

Personally the tint looks like it could be eased back a little as it is overpowering and distracts from the normal nature of "white snow" we are accustomed to. But it is still a very credible result for a first-timer coming to grips with Velvia!

Early morning or evening shots when the sky is turning quite blue can turn your snow into this colour, as will shooting in shadowed areas with bright sun.
If you wait long enough in the evening (or are up early enough in the morning), the Rise of the Belt of Venus and Earth's Shadow* will add an entirely new dimension to landscape shots -- snowy or not, by adding layers of blue-pink-blue, but it looks best in the absence of snow because of the whacky tint it will impart.

* EDIT: Post #5 by Trail Images shows this effect.

Provia (100) isn't (intentionally) as punchy as Velvia, but it has its own definite uses when a 'toned down' version of scenes is better than going over the top with its slower speed stablemate. However, if you wish to accentuate the delicate colours prevalent in early morning or evening (post-sunrise and post-sunset) twilight, Velvia is definitely the way to go but it will also require care to avoid reciprocity problems with longer exposures.

ITD · May 22, 2018

Poisson Du Jour said:
But it is still a very credible result for a first-timer coming to grips with Velvia!

Thanks Gary, I appreciate it!

I don't get to practice with snow very often, so would like to understand what I can do better next time. Firstly, maybe Velvia 50 is not the best option for the time of day when taking snow pictures, so a less punchy film like Provia would be preferable if I insist on using reversal film (I do )

If I'm using Provia, I might need some warming to avoid a blue cast so I'll probably try with and without to be sure.

If I'm still using Velvia, then a UV filter might help tone it down? Alternative is to shoot later in the morning or earlier in the afternoon.

Does all this sound ok, and are there any other controls I could use?

Thanks

Paul

Poisson Du Jour · May 22, 2018

ITD said:
If I'm using Provia, I might need some warming to avoid a blue cast so I'll probably try with and without to be sure.

If I'm still using Velvia, then a UV filter might help tone it down? Alternative is to shoot later in the morning or earlier in the afternoon.

Does all this sound ok, and are there any other controls I could use?

Yes, a light warming filter can counteract the cast, but it requires a bit of judgement as it is sometimes obvious that the natural response of the film has been suppressed/compromised by the use of a filter. Conversely, a light to moderate pink filter (SKYLIGHT 1B) will enhance pinks/reds while giving less prominence to blues.

A UV(0) filter is of more usefulness at higher altitudes for getting through haze; it can still let the strong blue of high altitudes through to the film.

There are many, many 'togs who enjoy the way E6 film renders specific times of the day, as you have caught. Others still point the finger at the film and announce it is hopeless for such scenes, except it is the photographer's own lack of understanding that is causing problems -- the film is only doing what it was designed to do! If you have two cameras, load one with RVP50 and the other with RDPIII, shooting the same scene at the same time. Then compare how each of these characteristically different emulsions record the scene and the prevailing light. This trick is invaluable in providing for a solid understanding of how one film will behave over the other, and how the behaviour of two different films can be applied to specific scenes without worrying about any effects that are undesired.

On this image, below, no warming filter was used, and the default circular polariser was jettisoned in favour of a UV(0), as it was considered important to "pick up" and enunciate the soft colour tones a few minutes after sunset (the sun was setting behind me). If this were a snow scene, I would have to make a decision as to the colour the sky would impart onto the snow, and whether this is what I (and potential viewers) would like to see. Theoretically, the pink-blue layer of the sky would come out more blue than pink because that is the nature of the evening light and the way Velvia would record it. Very early morning though and the light would be rendered pink (I have recorded this in studies in the outback in 2011).

jtk · May 22, 2018

"Pink" in any Fuji E6 is likely the result of processing issues. If you're using a pro lab they probably (or formerly did) know that E6 Ektachrome and E6 Fuji want different treatment... and that the Fuji has a Magenta tendency if it's not processed by a lab that processes enough to know the difference.

"Pink" is the opposite of cyan...I doubt anybody has a Cyan filter (unless they have a collection of Kodak gels) but lightest green might work.

Incidentally, there is no such color in photography as "pink." That usually refers to Magenta.

Poisson Du Jour · May 22, 2018

jtk said:
"pink" in any Fuji E6 is likely the result of processing issues. If you're using a pro lab they probably (or formerly did) know that E6 Ektachrome and E6 Fuji want different treatment.

"Pink" is the opposite of cyan...I doubt anybody has a cyan filter (unless they have a collection of Kodak gels) but lightest green might work.

Tainted lab chemicals can result in a cyanic, magenta or even greenish cast (which manifest glaringly in neutral/white areas), as can improper storage of the film, before and after shooting.
The basic response of E6 in various lighting conditions holds true, and the strength of that response can also vary on specific timing. It's not as if we re not familiar with, nor have never seen, the strong casts imparted by E6 and pointed the finger at the lab.

jtk · May 22, 2018

Poisson Du Jour said:
Tainted lab chemicals can result in a cyanic, magenta or even greenish cast (which manifest glaringly in neutral/white areas), as can improper storage of the film, before and after shooting.
The basic response of E6 in various lighting conditions holds true, and the strength of that response can also vary on specific timing. It's not as if we re not familiar with, nor have never seen, the strong casts imparted by E6 and pointed the finger at the lab.

Gary, the best E6 labs know to run Kodak and Fuji differently. This has nothing to do with "taint." I'm not referring to "strong casts." This was an issue among studio photographers and was widely known and discussed until chromes mostly died out in favor of digi.

ITD · May 22, 2018

jtk said:
"Pink" in any Fuji E6 is likely the result of processing issues. If you're using a pro lab they probably (or formerly did) know that E6 Ektachrome and E6 Fuji want different treatment... and that the Fuji has a Magenta tendency if it's not processed by a lab that processes enough to know the difference.

"Pink" is the opposite of cyan...I doubt anybody has a Cyan filter (unless they have a collection of Kodak gels) but lightest green might work.

Incidentally, there is no such color in photography as "pink." That usually refers to Magenta.

Ok, I have three affected rolls, two of which were processed professionally, and one by me at home. The results are identical, and only affect the shots at that time of day and where there is snow. Other shots on all three rolls have no magenta cast at all.

jtk · May 23, 2018

fwiw, when I said "pro lab" I meant a lab that refreshed its chemistry according to a schedule and testing. That sort of lab knows about difference between Fuji and Kodak and is far more consistent than a lab that doesn't refresh (e.g. that uses rotary processor). As well, I didn't mean to suggest an overall Magenta cast, I meant to refer to highlights.

Sirius Glass · May 24, 2018

Are you using a Skylight filter? Try a UV filter instead, it is not as warm.

ITD · May 25, 2018

Sirius Glass said:
Are you using a Skylight filter? Try a UV filter instead, it is not as warm.

No, I never saw the point in Skylight filters, I was advised early on that they were useful to 'protect the lens' but I didn't want unnecessary glass surfaces to keep clean so decided just to take care instead.

guangong · May 25, 2018

I also suggest any one of the filters mentioned in above posts. However, keep in mind that the computer in your brain processes the actual color of the snow under whatever conditions into white, but film simply records what is, although as pointed out by above posts, every film has certain color biases. For example, we normally see a given color as the same color throughout the day and even under incandescent light but film isn’t that smart.

Sirius Glass · May 25, 2018

ITD said:
No, I never saw the point in Skylight filters, I was advised early on that they were useful to 'protect the lens' but I didn't want unnecessary glass surfaces to keep clean so decided just to take care instead.

UV and Skylight filters remove the UV from the spectrum thus eliminate haze. That is the reason that they are sold while the Skylight filter warms the film response.

.

Ozxplorer · May 25, 2018

Just a few thoughts...

Slide film responds to variations of the ambient light Kelvin temperature at the time of exposure hence at different times of the day it would seem to record the same scene differently rendering the image either, just right or tinted warmer mornings & afternoons - (generally being more orange from sunrise & more orange toward sunset), then produce a somewhat colder blue cast (colour temperature higher than 5600k) at midday clear skies, at high altitude, distant horizons or overcast skies when the light Kelvin temperature is higher than the film day light balance rating.

Thus, using the UV & Skylight filters comes in handy managing the colour - dependent on the effect wanted.

Also, when processing the film one needs to control the chemistry temperatures within quite fine tolerances as any variation from the recommended temperatures might result in a colour cast shift as well...

I personally regard slide film as probably the most challenging of film media to use - everything has to be just right “before” the shutter is pressed! Good luck!

Huss · May 26, 2018

Trail Images said:
This was 4x5 Velvia 50 image. It had a magenta cast that I changed in PS. There is still a taste of pink in the snow. And, I like the amount of magenta left. The sunrise was directly behind me.

beautiful pic.

Trail Images · May 26, 2018

Huss said:
beautiful pic.

Thank you for your comment. It was a rare year at JTNP which saw a lot of snow over a week long period.
BTW: if you have ever seen the Inland Empire Magazine that photo was showcased in it a few years ago now.

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