"pinholes" on HP5+

[Ian David]

I can report the exact same experience with that combination, only 120 film.

Interesting Chris...
My theory is that, in your case and mine, Brisbane metro water may well be to blame. I have come across a few references (for what they are worth) to XTOL being quite reactive with certain impurities in solution. Brisbane water is pretty hard, and even demineralised/deionised Brisbane water (which I have been using) has probably still got a fair bit of stuff in it.
I have therefore just located a couple of local suppliers of reasonably cheap steam distilled water (in Carole Park - 30c per litre; or in Coopers Plains - 44c per litre) and intend to use this for all my future chemical mixing.
I will test the plan this weekend and see if I can solve my XTOL white spot issue!

Angelo - good luck with the Ilford examination. I look forward to hearing what they report back to you.
Ian

 

[clayne]

I have therefore just located a couple of local suppliers of reasonably cheap steam distilled water (in Carole Park - 30c per litre; or in Coopers Plains - 44c per litre) and intend to use this for all my future chemical mixing.
I will test the plan this weekend and see if I can solve my XTOL white spot issue!

That's a pretty decent price there. In the US (California), distilled water costs about 1USD/gallon, which is 3.8L, so the price is pretty similar. Amusingly though I tested my water the other night and found that it has a fairly neutral pH and the hardness strips showed it to be completely soft. I could probably get by entirely with tap water (I only use distilled water for mixing film developer and final rinse).

 

[Marco B]

I recently had a slightly similar experience with another film. White specks on my prints in numbers I hadn't seen before...

I wondered what was wrong, but realized I may have made one mistake. All of my chemicals were stored in the warm house, except the de-mineralized water I used for the final rinse... which was stored in an unheated room in my house.

With temperatures plummeting to minus -10C at night time during the winter here in the Netherlands, this room still stays above 0, but the water temp turned out to be some 6-8C degrees!

Looking at my negatives with a 10x loop actually makes me suspect that the dark specks in the negatives responsible for the white specks in print, are actually small areas of partial (not complete) "emulsion-lift-off", possibly caused by the temperature shock going from 20C to 8C on final rinse in de-mineralized water... Although it is difficult to see at just 10x, the "dark specks" do look like small "bubbles" instead of completely opaque dust specks.

The "bubbles" than probably appear and act as dust specks by interfering with the light transmission through the negative and cause more or less white specks on the print.

Is there anyone who can confirm similar issues due to temperature shock?

Marco

 

[jerry lebens]

I've had a similar experience with what I assumed was some kind of temperature shock with HP5. I can't recall what the developer was precisely, probably D76/ID11 at stock dilution in deep tanks.

It was during a heat-wave, the work was Rush! Rush! Rush! and the processing room was like a sauna because the air conditioning was caput. Contrary to my normal practice, I shortened the dev times to compensate for the high ambient temperatures... (Readers of a nervous disposition may want to turn away at this point). Halfway through processing, I began to feel faint from the heat and, so, health and safety be damned, I stripped down to my underpants. That wasn't enough and, so, I took the hose from the cold supply and started dowsing myself with cold water...

I survived to tell the tale, unfortunately the films didn't. They all had minute black spots which, although invisible on the contacts, produced nasty little white spots on the enlargements.
I have always assumed that it was something to do with the temperature shock received by the film going from 'hot' chemistry into very cold running water.

The client wasn't too impressed.

Still, that was nothing compared to the shock my female assistant got when I emerged, like Mr D'Arcy, almost naked and soaking wet from the processing room...
What's worse, I was wearing my last resort "emergency pants"...

Regards
Jerry

 

[Ian Grant]

Temperature shocks can cause severe grain clumping, I have to process at high temperatures, often it's 26°/27°C indoors, the water temperature's the same, (35°-40°+ outside) and that in itself is no problem with HP5 or other films I use as long as I keep close to the same temperature throughout, but as soon as the film gets a temperature shock the micro-reticulation can occur.

Ian

 

[Chazzy]

I hope that the original poster or Simon Galley will report on the results of the examination. It will be of educational benefit to all of us. Mr. Galley is to be commended for his attitude toward customer service.

 

[Marco B]

Temperature shocks can cause severe grain clumping, I have to process at high temperatures, often it's 26°/27°C indoors, the water temperature's the same, (35°-40°+ outside) and that in itself is no problem with HP5 or other films I use as long as I keep close to the same temperature throughout, but as soon as the film gets a temperature shock the micro-reticulation can occur.

Ian

OK, good to hear some confirmation of the temperature shock issues. My description of "emulsion-lift-off" is probably not the best, as it doesn't look like direct damage to the emulsion.

When looking through a 10X loupe against window light, it appears like "micro-bubbles", but these could fit the bill of grain clumping in very small areas, with grains clumping together at the "edges" of what appears as a "micro-bubble". Anyway, looking through a loupe, they still appear bubble like, with transparent centres, yet they DO results in more or less white-ish spots in the print.

Since the phenomenon appears to be resulting in defects about the size of more regular dust particles, it is easy to mistake it for ordinary dust.

Next time I get the opportunity to scan on an Imacon 848, I will take one of the negative with me to see if I can get some nice image that may help in showing the real nature of at least my own issues...

I hope that the original poster or Simon Galley will report on the results of the examination. It will be of educational benefit to all of us. Mr. Galley is to be commended for his attitude toward customer service.

Indeed curious what Simon comes up with...

 

[Marco B]

By the way, nice link detailing a list of possible issues with negatives:

http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/photomicrography/bwprocessingerrors.html

Unfortunately, I wish they had some bigger sample images, the images can't be enlarged...

Marco

 

[Marco B]

And another nice link, although off-topic except the word "reticulation" about Triacetate decomposition (unfortunately still the film base of most 35 mm films), with some info I have not read before...:

http://www.nfsa.gov.au/preservation/decomposing_cellulose.html

I so wish all films were on polyester...

Marco

 

[Ian David]

Temperature shocks can cause severe grain clumping, I have to process at high temperatures, often it's 26°/27°C indoors, the water temperature's the same, (35°-40°+ outside) and that in itself is no problem with HP5 or other films I use as long as I keep close to the same temperature throughout, but as soon as the film gets a temperature shock the micro-reticulation can occur.

Ian

I suspect Brisbane in summer is sometimes a bit like Turkey, Ian

At what stage do you think the film reticulation issue first presents itself? Eg is there a danger in plunging dry film sheets at room temperature (say 28 degrees) into developer at 19 degrees? Or does the potential for issues only arise after that point?

Ian

 

[Marco B]

I suspect Brisbane in summer is sometimes a bit like Turkey, Ian

At what stage do you think the film reticulation issue first presents itself? Eg is there a danger in plunging dry film sheets at room temperature (say 28 degrees) into developer at 19 degrees? Or does the potential for issues only arise after that point?

Ian

Actually, that NSFA link I posted, shows that there are two mechanisms for reticulation to occur:

- Temperature shock (possibly relevant to this thread as per OPs problems)
- Caused by the long term degradation of the Triacetate film base (not relevant here)

This is reticulation of the gelatine layer, not the film base itself (although that will shrink and buckle too if I understood it well from other literature with increasing age) caused by a pH change in case 2, that is in turn caused by the degradation of the Triacetate.

Marco

 

[Photo Engineer]

By the way, nice link detailing a list of possible issues with negatives:

http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/photomicrography/bwprocessingerrors.html

Unfortunately, I wish they had some bigger sample images, the images can't be enlarged...

Marco

Some of the photos in this link are incorrectly identified. Check the one labeled "partially fogged" for one example. There are a few more.

PE

 

[Photo Engineer]

Grain clumping due to temperature shocks is extremely rare and particularly in modern hard films. This is just a side note to some of the comments here. By the time you make the clumps form, you have probably actually reticulated the film and that is what causes what appears to be clumps.

PE

 

[Angelo di Mango]

The negs are on their wa to simon and his technicians!
Just be patient;-)))

 

[Marco B]

At what stage do you think the film reticulation issue first presents itself? Eg is there a danger in plunging dry film sheets at room temperature (say 28 degrees) into developer at 19 degrees? Or does the potential for issues only arise after that point?

Ian

As I wrote, in my case it was probably a sudden temperature drop of 12-14C causing issues and "grain clumping"

Also, it would be nice to know if "grain clumping" and "reticulation" as referenced by Ian can or are two (possibly related) different issues.

I do see something that may be "grain clumping" with a loupe, but no sign of deformation and buckling of the gelatine layer, as per "reticulation", although it is hard to tell with such tiny defects.

 

[clayne]

Drop from 20C -> 12-14C causing grain clumping? I seriously, extremely seriously (is that even possible?), doubt it.

 

[Ray Rogers]

By the way, nice link detailing a list of possible issues with negatives:

http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/photomicrography/bwprocessingerrors.html

Unfortunately, I wish they had some bigger sample images, the images can't be enlarged...

Marco

Hey, uh, (did someone already point this out? !! or did everyone notice that...)
Those images are not real!
And, besides that... they are all the same frame no. (Good old unlucky #4)

I guess they couldn't find any real problems so they just "drew" some from "memory".

 

[Ray Rogers]

What is Grain Clumping?

As I wrote, in my case it was probably a sudden temperature drop of 12-14C causing issues and "grain clumping"

Also, it would be nice to know if "grain clumping" and "reticulation" as referenced by Ian can or are two (possibly related) different issues.

I do see something that may be "grain clumping" with a loupe, but no sign of deformation and buckling of the gelatine layer, as per "reticulation", although it is hard to tell with such tiny defects.

What is "Grain Clumping"?

By grain, do you mean the "grain" visible in a fast film, and not the silver halide microcrystals that exist before processing?

Are you (everyone) referring to something different from reticulation?

I have observed, (probably from a rapid temperature drop during that washing steps... ) with one of the T-max films and the Tmax developer, an unusual effect...

First, the film seems to be more "gray" and lower in contrast than usual,
and sort of looks reticulated... Now I used to make reticulated mages and these are... (as Ian used the term) more like MICRO-reticulation than the regular retculation I used to enjoy creating.

I had the problem several times but shrugged it off, thinking maybe it was the x-ray, the temp was way off or my favorite "Did I goof up?!"

I am starting now to wonder if the hardener /increased hardening they seem to be using might have reduced the -range- over which the retculation "pulls" or "clumps", but that "reticulation" was not actually elminated...

Could your "grain clumping" = my "micro-reticulation" ?

Ray

 

[Marco B]

Drop from 20C -> 12-14C causing grain clumping? I seriously, extremely seriously (is that even possible?), doubt it.

You haven't read my posts properly. I said a 12-14C temperature drop. That is from 20C to 6-8C...

 

[Marco B]

What is "Grain Clumping"?

By grain, do you mean the "grain" visible in a fast film, and not the silver halide microcrystals that exist before processing?

Ray, my temperature shock issue was with the final water bath, so well after the processing of the film... read the posts. About Grain Clumping, I just replicated Ian Grants name for some issue... ask him.

First, the film seems to be more "gray" and lower in contrast than usual,
and sort of looks reticulated... Now I used to make reticulated mages and these are... (as Ian used the term) more like MICRO-reticulation than the regular reticulation I used to enjoy creating.

In MY case (we may well be outside what the OP experiences), if this is reticulation, it only happens in very small localized areas, not bigger than a dust speck. I see a few dozen "white specks" on prints of the affected negative, but for the rest, the negative and prints look OK. Thus, it appears or seems dust, however, as I described before, when I look through a 10X loupe, I see something resembling microscopic "bubbles" (which they probably aren't) at the affected spots in the negative, that clearly distinguish themselves from true opaque dust specks. Even though these "micro-bubbles" appear to be partially transparent (that's why they seem "bubbles", darker edges, with lighter interiors), they end up printing as more or less white spots on paper.

 

[Ian Grant]

What is "Grain Clumping"?

By grain, do you mean the "grain" visible in a fast film, and not the silver halide microcrystals that exist before processing?

Are you (everyone) referring to something different from reticulation?

I have observed, (probably from a rapid temperature drop during that washing steps... ) with one of the T-max films and the Tmax developer, an unusual effect...

First, the film seems to be more "gray" and lower in contrast than usual,
and sort of looks reticulated... Now I used to make reticulated mages and these are... (as Ian used the term) more like MICRO-reticulation than the regular retculation I used to enjoy creating.

I had the problem several times but shrugged it off, thinking maybe it was the x-ray, the temp was way off or my favorite "Did I goof up?!"

I am starting now to wonder if the hardener /increased hardening they seem to be using might have reduced the -range- over which the retculation "pulls" or "clumps", but that "reticulation" was not actually elminated...

Could your "grain clumping" = my "micro-reticulation" ?

Ray

There was an article many years ago in a US magazine, Darkroom Techniques possibly, that described Micro-reticulation, and your grain clumping is exactly what they meant.

Drop from 20C -> 12-14C causing grain clumping? I seriously, extremely seriously (is that even possible?), doubt it.

Have you ever considered why two photographers can use the same film/developer combinations, similar times & agitaion, exposures etc and yet one has grainy negative while the other excellent fine grain ?

This is often down to poor temperature control between all stages of the processing sequence.

So yes going from 20°C -> 12°-14°C could make a very big difference particularly if your using 35mm, and of course some film emulsions will be affected more than others.

The effects will be more pronounced if someone's working at temperatures over 20°C, and the pH of the developer can play a part as well.

Ian

 

[clayne]

There was an article many years ago in a US magazine, Darkroom Techniques possibly, that described Micro-reticulation, and your grain clumping is exactly what they meant.



Have you ever considered why two photographers can use the same film/developer combinations, similar times & agitaion, exposures etc and yet one has grainy negative while the other excellent fine grain ?

This is often down to poor temperature control between all stages of the processing sequence.

So yes going from 20°C -> 12°-14°C could make a very big difference particularly if your using 35mm, and of course some film emulsions will be affected more than others.

The effects will be more pronounced if someone's working at temperatures over 20°C, and the pH of the developer can play a part as well.

Ian

Perhaps we're going to have to prove this now. It shouldn't be too difficult to shoot the same roll, process at 20C, chop into two parts, and drop one in 35C water and the other in 5C water and scan the results. I think this grain clumping issue is just another boogieman - atleast with film of today. The test should be conducted with Tri-X, Neopan, APX, or HP5 - something everyone is familiar with. No cherry-picking with Efke or similar for testing.

 

[Ian Grant]

Your more than welcome to use your film up I find it remarkably easy to keep a processing sequence within 1°C, even here in Turkey during the summer.

One problem with any testing is that there are just too many variables that could affect these issues, like at what stage is the temperature drop most critical, def to stop bath, stop to fixer, wash, type of developer etc.

But then the US magazine did the test with films that are still around today I've seen it so I don't need convincing.

Ian

 

[clayne]

Your more than welcome to use your film up I find it remarkably easy to keep a processing sequence within 1°C, even here in Turkey during the summer.

One problem with any testing is that there are just too many variables that could affect these issues, like at what stage is the temperature drop most critical, def to stop bath, stop to fixer, wash, type of developer etc.

But then the US magazine did the test with films that are still around today I've seen it so I don't need convincing.

Ian

Here's what I'm not getting. How is any grain to be clumped once we're past the fixer stage? I wouldn't expect the grain to shift, move, clump, etc. - if anything it would be the gelatin itself enabling some effect.

But aside from clumping, I can guarantee you that XTOL doesn't cause pinholes. Even to this day people are still paranoid delusional about it at times but forget the main truth: it's an extremely good developer.

 

[Marco B]

Here's what I'm not getting. How is any grain to be clumped once we're past the fixer stage? I wouldn't expect the grain to shift, move, clump, etc. - if anything it would be the gelatin itself enabling some effect.

I am not the one saying it is not the gelatin shifting... The "micro-bubbles" I described sure look like some small defects in the gelatin layer, that may be attributable to the temperature shock.

In the end though it doesn't matter: if you rip the entire layer of gelatine of the film base, and crumble it up in your hands to a tiny ball, you have "grain clumping"... it doesn't matter whether it is the grains themselves moving within a stable gelatine matrix, or the gelatine layer with the grains entrenched in it that is moving, the end result is the same: a (tiny) disturbance of the photographic layer and distribution of the grains.