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Donald Miller

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Jorge said:
Well guys, Steve is seriously considering going digital. Here is the URL for his editorial comment. Drop him a line and tell him what you think.

http://www.photovisionmagazine.com/current/v3n6editor.html

Jorge,
I read your post with a great deal of concern and dismay. Upon reading the editorial comment, I contacted Steve and indicated my feelings about the need for a publication in which the needs, processes, and sharing of knowledge in conventional photography were addressed. At least that is what my thoughts were until I received his reply.

It seems that based upon his post in which he indicated his need for subscriptions, offering a free trial copy of his fine publication to participants of this forum, that he felt very discouraged when only 20 people from this site contacted his office requesting a free copy.

C'mon folks...if the participants of this site (APUG), don't support the only remaining solely conventional photography publication, then we have no one to blame but ourselves when our method of artistic expression becomes so fragmented that we no longer have the materials and equipment to practice our art. If this support, that I am suggesting, were a one sided affair, I would not even begin to suggest it to you. We are both too intelligent for that. This is not a one sided affair. The benefits that a reader gains are "far and away" greater then the financial cost involved.

Remember Kodak Super XX??? Is there a film today that has replaced it??? Do you realize the threat that exists to the continuance of Azo??? Is there a substitute for Azo??? For those of us who have practiced this art for any considerable length of time, the list of discontinued products can be increased to even greater numbers. To believe that another company or companies will pick up the banner, when existing suppliers drop it, is ludicrous. It hasn't happened before. It is unlikely that it will happen now. Recently Ilford publicly stated that the could not "hand on heart" state that they were going to develop another black and white emulsion. This is a time when those of us who have the courage of our convictions must step up and be counted.

If, in the future, you want to produce black and white photographs made with chromogenic film, processed in your local one hour lab's C41 processor, and then printed on the latest variety of plastic, we are rapidly getting to that point. This is a time when all facets of the film based photography community must join in a cohesive manner to attempt to maintain our supplies, our equipment, and our fellowship. There is no better place to begin then to spend the 7 cents a day that a subscription to PhotoVision costs.

I will personally offer this as a guarantee of satisfaction for the next 12 subscribers to PhotoVision, from this forum, for a one year period. If at the end of six months (three issues) you feel that your money has not been well spent, that you have not received that measure of enrichment, motivation, and enlightenment then all you need do is contact me and tell me of your feelings, and I will personally mail you my check to cover your subscription cost. I will accept you as being honest in your endeavors.

I have no personal financial interest in this publication. I do have the Courage of my Convictions. Do you?
 

glewis

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Having come late to the original posting, I figured the limit had aready been exceeded. That's why I didn't send in my request. That why, I think, a lot of us didn't send in a request. However, do to your posting, I have sent in my request.
 

Jim Chinn

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I recently subscribed, and the most recent issue is excellent. I especially was fascinated by the article discussing the use Green Tea instead of Pyrogallol in a developer equal to PMK.
 

juan

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I was one of the 20, I guess. I'll be subscribing, too. We certainly need to support those who support our craft.

I live in a city large enough to have an NFL (professional) football team - but only one photo store other than the mall stores. I dropped by today to buy a bottle of Rodinal. They don't carry it anymore. They don't carry Kodak paper anymore, and only a few boxes of Ilford. They have lots of Epson, though. I ordered the Rodinal from Calumet. I'll be ordering film from J&C. Thank goodness for these folks.
juan
 

Jorge

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Well, he should be disappointed if only 20 members asked for a free issue. Here is his offer exactly as quoted:

"The first 100 members of APUG to write Deana Fisher, pvadvert@ctelco.net, will receive a free sample issue. Let her know that you heard about Photovision through APUG."

Now c`mon people, Steve has been very gracious and he is doing a great job with the magazine, if you don't believe me, get your FREE issue and see for yourself!

Besides what Don mentioned even Ilford which has been a greater supporter of B&W materials than Kodak is displacing their lines in favor of digital. The Gallery B&W paper, which was their best fiber paper, has changed name and now the name "gallery" applies to an ink jet paper....do you all want to see this happen for all the products you like?

I promise you, if you are indifferent to the materials you like they will disappear sooner or later. If Photovision disappears what is the message to manufacturers? Simply that there is not enough interest and that they are correct in thinking that digital is the correct choice for them.
 

lee

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I subscribed for one year. I am not a big subscription person. I did not want a free mag. I have most of them because I buy at the news stand. I figured that someone else that was not aware of the mag might want to see it.

lee\c
 

Donald Miller

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Lee,
I did the same thing that you did. (subscribed in lieu of the free copy). I am sure that Steve thanks you for your subscription...and also all others that subscribed such as Aggie and others as well. It just seems that there are some folks out there that apparently felt the free copies were already gone or don't feel the same commitment to our chosen means of expression.

My earlier post was addressed to those who have not availed themselves of the free copy that Steve offered or failed to recognize the importance of supporting this fine publication. The reason that this is so important is that advertisers pay on the basis of subscriptions...numbers of subscriptions send a message to those who manufacture and sell the products that you and I use. The message that a good subscriber base sends is that we are a group of dedicated individuals that are a market segment worth recognizing. The reason that this publication is so well suited to deliver that message is that it is the only publication that deals only with film based photography. There can be no doubt to the advertisers that digital is not the source of the subscription base. If we fail to come together in support of this, with the digital market a fact, then our products may very well be ultimately discontinued. This is what Jorge stated so very well.

Additionally, my earlier offer still stands...if you subscribe and are one of the first twelve from this forum to do so and if for some reason you feel that your money is not well spent on this publication after three issues, let me know...I will refund your money. Just let the person that you speak with on the phone when you subscribe know that you are subscribing under the offer that Don Miller made on Apug on July 3, 2003. Now I am not a wealthy person, quite the contrary, I just feel very strongly about this matter and I am willing to put my money where my mouth is.
 

lee

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I don't anticipate having to take you up on the offer. I am fully aware of the quality of the magazine. I hope it survives as it is now.

lee/c
 
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Steve Anchell

Steve Anchell

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Dear APUG members,

I thought you might like an update on the response to my offer for a free issue of Photovision.

As you know, the offer was first posted on June 6. As of today, July 10, 24 members have taken me up on the free issue, and around 20 members have subscribed (the exact number of subscribers is difficult to ascertain as not all APUG members may have indicated their affiliation).

The offer is still open.

Thank you to all who have rallied to the cause. As Jorge wrote, "“If Photovision disappears what is the message to manufacturers? Simply that there is not enough interest and that they are correct in thinking that digital is the correct choice for them.”
 

Donald Miller

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As an indication of what Steve and Jorge have indicated, I learned this morning that the marketing department of Kodak has decided to discontinue TriX in 8X10 format.

We, the traditional film based community, really need to come together, folks. There is no better place to do that then with a subscription to PhotoVision. The cost is approximately 7 cents a day. Think of it this way, that cup of coffee you buy is about 10 days to two weeks of your subscription cost.
 

Jorge

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Steve Anchell said:
Dear APUG members,

I thought you might like an update on the response to my offer for a free issue of Photovision.

As you know, the offer was first posted on June 6. As of today, July 10, 24 members have taken me up on the free issue, and around 20 members have subscribed (the exact number of subscribers is difficult to ascertain as not all APUG members may have indicated their affiliation).

The offer is still open.

Thank you to all who have rallied to the cause. As Jorge wrote, "“If Photovision disappears what is the message to manufacturers? Simply that there is not enough interest and that they are correct in thinking that digital is the correct choice for them.”
Well, actually it was Don who so elocuently put it, but I second the sentiments 100%. Really we gripe, bitch and moan about digital taking over all facets of photography, if Photovision dissapears and we loose more and more of the materials we like, as it seems TriX is now gone in 8x10 well, we have nobody to blame but ourselves.
 

Jorge

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Just read on that other site that Tri X is not discontinued, only that Kodak is changing catalog number on the 8x10 film, and that they have not been producing any new film on the new facility so they ran out. Wow...soem effective management there, uh?
 

David A. Goldfarb

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Seems there's plenty of Tri-X floating around meanwhile. I got a box of 8x10" at B&H some weeks ago, and just last week I was still able to get a 100-sheet box of 4x5" (discontinued several months ago--now 50-sheet boxes only), and they had several more on the shelf.
 

Jeremy

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I plan on subscribing as soon as I've paid for my books for the fall semester.
 
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Steve Anchell

Steve Anchell

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Dear APUG members,

I find this dialog about the availability of Tri-X and the continuing availability of cameras, film, etc., interesting, and would like to add to it. Due to my position as editor of Photovision I have to be careful what I say, and begin this by informing you that the following is only my opinion

I am in a unique position to monitor the trends in the photo industry. Not only as an editor, but also as a photographer dedicated to film for 33 years. I have been watching the trends for years prior to editing PV. I have seen fads come and go. Digital is not a fad, but here to stay and here is my opinion:

The problem we face is not how many of us there are who want to use film or how much better film capture and printing is over digital. Nobody but a relative handful of photographers cares if film quality is better than digital, and if digital is self-limiting and will never surpass film.

The problem is the motivation of the manufacturers, who will ultimately decide whether or not cameras, film and paper will be available in the years to come, and the rush by school photography programs away from film and into digital.

Let me start with something that occurred at PhotoPlus Expo in NY in 2001. At the time, this appeared to me as a portent of things to come. Eastman Kodak had their usual presence at the front of the Javitts Center. A huge, yellow booth. The outside was covered with large photographs which proudly proclaimed they were all made using Kodachrome slide film. Entering the booth, I could not locate a single roll of film! The entire presentation was digital.

From almost the beginning, Kodak has supported fine art photography through generous grants and funding. Since at least the 1960s, Kodak has been a big supporter of fine art workshops. Now Kodak only funds programs aimed at the professional photographer (studio, weddings, etc.) or programs that teach digital imaging. No fine art. No black and white. No film or darkroom.

Until 1984, Kodak maintained the largest research lab for silver-based photography, in the world. The most brilliant minds working on film, paper, chemistry, color and b/w worked there. Many began with little or no background in photo chemistry. Instead, older generations of photo researchers would take the neophytes under their wing and impart to them their lifetime of learning and knowledge. It was a great and unique system that actually worked.

In 1984 a new CEO took over Kodak with a new vision: Digital was the future. Film was passé. The first thing to go was the research lab. Somewhere between 30 and 40 of the finest photo chemists in the world were let go, through early retirement, etc. Left were about 4 or 5 researchers, who have slowly been replaced with “wet behind the ears” graduates from RIT with little or no background in photo chemistry and no one to mentor them. In their place Kodak hired several thousand engineers to create digital imaging products.

Since 1984 Kodak has lost billions and billions of dollars on digital. Really. Billions and billions. What keeps them in business is their worldwide sales of film and paper, color and b/w. Not U.S. sales...worldwide. Kodak sells enough to fund billions of dollars of losses in digital and still show a profit.

The thinking at Kodak is that digital is the future, and they want to dominate the digital world as they have the film world. Bully for Kodak, you say? The problem is that Kodak is a Fortune 500 company (thanks to film and paper) and when the Wall Street Journal, or anyone else interested in economic indicators, wants to know which way the wind blows, the pat answer from Kodak is “film is dead, digital is the future.” This has a chilling effect on how both established and start-up companies invest, and whom they will invest in, which affects us directly.

If upper management had it’s way, Kodak would discontinue all silver-based products this very day. Fortunately for us, they can’t do that, for the reasons cited above. Fortunately for us also, as long as they make a profit off silver-based products they will continue to produce them. But any excuse to discontinue a film or paper will be taken. In other words, Kodak’s loyalty to film is only lip service. Their film, paper, and D-76 sell around the world (Asia, South America, etc.) without any effort on their part, so they continue to produce them.

The point here is: Kodak is not your friend. Every time you purchase a roll of T-Max you’re supporting the end of film photography. As John Sexton says, regarding his non-use of RC papers, we talk with our dollars.

That’s Kodak. What about Ilford? In 1995 a friend of mine at Ilford told me that Ilford was losing money on b/w film and paper, and had been for years (the opposite of Kodak). The only reason Ilford still manufactured film and paper was...tradition. They’d done it for so long, they didn’t know how to quit! (We’re talking the parent company, Ilford UK, not Ilford US, which is only a distributor.)

As a result of it’s devotion to b/w products Ilford nearly went under. Then inkjet came along. Inkjet paper and inks have literally saved Ilford (and Luminous Paper Co., remember them?). The problem for us is, they no longer need to make b/w materials. The problem for us, in my opinion, is that Ilford films and papers are among the finest in the world.

My suggestion is to stop buying Kodak films and papers and start supporting Ilford. It may be too little too late, but I still say speak with your pocketbook. If Ilford stops making film, buy Agfa, Forte, Fomapan, or Efke. Tell Kodak we don’t need them, and their little dog, too.

Agfa is another situation. I don’t know much about Agfa in Europe, but Agfa in the US almost can’t give away their film and paper. You may or may not have noticed, but Agfa has not placed an ad for b/w materials in a magazine for over 3 years, they can’t afford to. On the other hand, Agfa papers are at least as good as Ilford’s. Agfa APX 100 developed in Rodinal is an unbeatable combination. But if they can’t sell the stuff, there’s no use in continuing to make it.

The difference, to me, between Kodak, Ilford, and Agfa, is that Kodak is actively trying to stamp out film, whereas Ilford and Agfa would like to support film, but can’t compete with Kodak and the dwindling market.

That’s the film end. Then there is the camera end. As it turns out, digital cameras are less expensive to make, per unit, than film cameras. Not only that, but digital cameras make a 20% profit, whereas film cameras make less than 10% (sometimes less than 5%).

Now, if you were Nikon or Canon, which would you want to make and sell? Film (10% profit) or Digital (20% profit)? Hmmmm. That’s a toughie. Let me think about it.

Neither Nikon, Canon, Minolta, or anyone else wants to promote film cameras anymore. You will hardly find an ad for one.

The head of Minolta loves Photovision and believes in what we are trying to do, support photographers by publishing their portfolios and book reviews. He has a subscription.

But Minolta doesn’t have an ad for a current film camera and it would cost approximately $50,000 to produce one (the staff at PV could produce an ad for $2,000 but then Minolta would be sued by their ad agency). If they did have an ad, they probably wouldn’t sell six film cameras in today’s market. Everyone is snatching up used Hasselblads and Leicas on E-bay.

So, in order to support PV, Minolta placed a full page ad in three consecutive issues for their digital cameras. Ostensibly, Minolta claimed the ads were to entice film photographers who might want to purchase a point-and-shoot digital camera. The real reason was to help PV out.

There was such a hue and cry from some of our readers (one not only cancelled his subscription and wrote a nasty post to the PV forum, which you can still read, but also convinced a number of his friends to cancel their subscriptions, each friend sending in even nastier letters) that I could no longer accept Minolta’s ad, to the detriment of our already tenuous cash flow.

Then there are the schools. Photo instructors throughout the U.S. are embracing digital technology. Many of them, and I speak as a member-in-good-standing of The Society of Photographic Educators (SPE), are burned out on teaching film and darkroom.

Many of them are having a blast with the new technology, provided to them by Apple and special incentive programs from Adobe. I mean, after years of mixing chemicals in a dark, wet room, with out-of-alignment enlargers, and baby-sitting kids who are taking photography 101 as an elective, wouldn’t you rather see the school gut the darkroom, paint the walls white, put in some windows, and 20 new Apple computers?

Many schools, even when the teachers want to continue teaching film and darkroom, are pushing to replace the wet darkroom with the digital light room. Instead of paying for HazMat chemical removal and maintaining OSHA standard darkrooms, all the schools need to do is worry about eye strain and butt spread.

The other side of this equation is that the MTV Generation, raised on computers and 3 minute sound-bytes, are demanding to learn digital imaging. Nobody, nobody is demanding to learn darkroom techniques.

Then there are workshops. Film based workshops, particularly technical workshops such as large format, Zone System, darkroom, etc., can’t get enough students to break even. On the other hand, there is standing room only for Adobe Photoshop workshops.

Finally, there are the enlarger manufacturers. Like Agfa paper, they can’t give enlargers away. If someone wants to start a darkroom, they can have their pick of everything from a DeVere 8x10" enlarger to a Besler Printmaker 5, with the sink thrown in, for almost the cost of shipping. Just go to E-bay. Beseler is struggling to survive by selling camera bags (as is everyone else, including JOBO, Omega, Tiffen/Saunders, etc.). Hasselblad is on the brink. Leica likewise.

And, I have to say it, I can barely get 20 APUG members to subscribe to Photovision, which for three years has been the lone voice promoting film and darkroom.

And I haven’t even mentioned the trend by news publications and commercial photographers to embrace digital. You can see that one for yourself.

That leaves Third World photographers in South America and India using b/w film, photographers in China using color film, and fine art photographers in the U.S. using b/w (many fine art photographers already accustomed to having a lab develop and print their work don’t see a problem with digital imaging; in fact, they’re elated they can cut the lab out).

There is much more I could write, but in my personal opinion, of all the problems facing film photographers, the two that we have to fear most are Eastman Kodak and the schools. Eastman because of it’s enmity towards silver-based processes, and the power it wields; the schools because without education, the current generation of film users will be the last.
 

lee

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Whew, I am glad as Hell I am old man and will not live to see the total demise of film. I already give my support to Ilford as I have moved nearly all my business to Ilford. Kodak really doesn't have much for me these days. I don't know if I was counted in the 20 from APUG as I subscribed via the website. Hang in there.

lee\c
 

bmac

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I too use mostly Ilford and Forte products. Big Yellow doesn't have much left for me besides HC110. On another note, has anyone checked out the Anseladams.com workshop page? I think Ansel is prol rolling over in his grave.
 

Aggie

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I took one of the AA workshops in December. We were told that ansel would love digital. That was an asumption made by a person who had little if any contact with the man.

On the other hand, doesn't that book the darkroom cookbook written by some obscure person (lol) have a formula for making a developer like hc110?
 

doughowk

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Received today my free copy of PV (less than a week after my request); and I've read most of articles - great stuff. Will send in subscription next week. A few comments: I only got back into photography about year ago thanks to helping my wife while she took a photo course at local college. The course was b&w with darkroom work. Previously, I'd tried digital but was unimpressed with results - ok for snapshots. I currently do use digital prints for enlargements (scanned from film negatives); but will trend towards darkroom as my work inproves enough to merit a silver print. Just received a "yellow" box of Azo paper today; & will try some contact printing this weekend. All this is to say that if you tried to tailor a magazine to my workflow, PV would be just another general purpose photography mag. Skip trying to be all things to all photographers; and continue to do what you do best. Photographers don't just read one magazine .
 

Jim Chinn

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I agree with Steve's assessment of analogue imaging. I think as time goes on this is all going to shake out with one major manufacturer for color film, probably only 35mm and one or two smaller manufacturers who will produce B&W. What I fear is that we will see the end of ULF film and possibly everything 5x7 and above.

As far as paper goes, the choices will be narrowed down to 2 or 3 smaller manufacturers with a limited number of papers available. On the other hand if Kodak and Ilford no longer produce paper, it may open up the market for some new niche producers.

As far as chemistry, except for HC110, there is virtually nothing that cannot be made from raw materials easily obtainable.

OTOH, I see posts every week on photonet by people wanting to get into 4x5 and guys uisng 4x5 or 8x10 wanting to get into ULF cameras. Someone is buying all that used LF gear on Ebay and I don't think it is all collectors putting it on a shelf to look at.

So I guess I don't see the end of analogue, but I do see a vast reduction in tools and resources as well as an increasing cost for materials. Time will tell. If you read posts in the photonet archive from 3 yrs ago you would believe that the last film in the world would have been exposed by now.
 

roy

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Jim68134 said:
So I guess I don't see the end of analogue

There is still a great interest and I suppose the manufacturers are unable to judge the degree of continuance of this in the materials curently available. New papers and developers are still being produced and, of course, we are doing our little bit. What is happening is that the whole area is being expanded by bringing in this 'other method' of image making.
I lent my free copy of PV to a fellow photographer and as soon as I get it back or he gets his own (!), I shall take out a sub. It is very similar to the old Camera & Darkroom magazine, whose demise is mourned by me.
 

Nancy

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This thread has really struck a note with me. I'm only just beginning to realize the joys of working with b/w film and have just started in the darkroom. I wasted too much time with digital this and digital that.
As soon as I finish typing I'm off to submit my subscription.
Nancy
 
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Steve

For me, at least, subscribing to a magazine not printed over here (Brazil) means paying more on posting than the magazine cover price, or waiting a long and unpredictable time for surface mail.
This may be true to many on the international audience you may have.

Have you considered an electronic copy of the magazine (as you do with old numbers on your site)?


Jorge O
 
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