Photoshopping, a good or bad thing to do?

[Algo después]

This is the first I've heard that the woman in Dorothea Lange's Migrant Mother was a hired actress. I thought her name was Florence Owens Thompson and she was a migrant worker. There is a write up about her in Wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence_Owens_Thompson

I guess you can't believe everything you read on the internet.

...you're right, I read it somewhere and now I can't find it, so I apologize for the lack of precision.
Meanwhile I found this comment on the page you attach:

"While the image was being prepared for exhibit in 1938,[13] the negative of the photo was retouched to remove Florence's thumb from the lower-right corner of the image"

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Periodicals and magazines like the NY Times and National Geographic have a strong interest in honest photos. They are making presentations and deceptive practices with photos or text hurt their publications' credibility. Here're the requirements for NatGeo 2020 photo contest:

Only minor burning, dodging and/or colour correction is acceptable, as is cropping.

National Geographic Traveller Photography Competition 2020 | National Geographic

 

[faberryman]

Meanwhile I found this comment on the page you attach:

"While the image was being prepared for exhibit in 1938,[13] the negative of the photo was retouched to remove Florence's thumb from the lower-right corner of the image"

Yes, we talked about that example a couple of years back. The same people were having the same conversation as we are now.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/art-photos-are-manipulations.177791/page-12

 

[Algo después]

Yes, we talked about that example a couple of years back. The same people were having the same conversation as we are now.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/art-photos-are-manipulations.177791/page-12

Interesting. Thanks for sharing this. Here´s another article that puts into discussion the objectivity of The FSA Photographs

https://www.bu.edu/writingprogram/j...he-fsa-photographs-information-or-propaganda/

 

[markjwyatt]

Yes, we talked about that example a couple of years back. The same people were having the same conversation as we are now.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/art-photos-are-manipulations.177791/page-12

That was a good thread. Here is my view on the "thumb" issue, and applies also to the Ansel Adam's deletion.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/art-photos-are-manipulations.177791/page-13#post-2324786

I extended the conversation a bit in the following post: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/art-photos-are-manipulations.177791/page-13#post-2324792

 

[Algo después]

That was a good thread. Here is my view on the "thumb" issue, and applies also to the Ansel Adam's deletion.

Thanks, I checked until the last post and it seems that the topic does not close. In fact, it is as if the subject returns from time to time with new vigor that surpasses this thread.

 

[markjwyatt]

Thanks, I checked until the last post and it seems that the topic does not close. In fact, it is as if the subject returns from time to time with new vigor that surpasses this thread.

I do not suspect it will ever be solved in whole for sure.

 

[removed account4]

I think what you are referring to is the Three Slider Rule. There was a huge debate about it a while back. The ideologues said you could only use the exposure, contrast, and sharpen sliders. Anything more and the image was fake. More liberal minded advocates of the rule said you could use any three sliders, but not more than three. So, for example, the Fauves went with hue, saturation and tint. I'm not sure how it all turned out.

I didn't hear it was a rule, I probably didn't catch the thread because it was filled with name calling and people with too much conviction on both sides.
let them have their rules, they have nothing better to do than make rules I guess.

 

[faberryman]

I didn't hear it was a rule, I probably didn't catch the thread because it was filled with name calling and people with too much conviction on both sides.
let them have their rules, they have nothing better to do than make rules I guess.

Actually, my post was tongue in cheek, although given a few of the posts in this thread, it is easy to think it might be true.

 

[removed account4]

Actually, my post was tongue in cheek, although given a few of the posts in this thread, it is easy to think it might be true.

LOL I've been duped !

 

[Sirius Glass]

...to add fuel to the fire: this work by Sherry Levine (After Walker Evans, 1981). The photograph of a photo from a Walker Evans book.

As a background, in order to present the New Deal Roosevelt, he commissioned Roy Stryker to hire renowned photographers to produce a documentary record of the America deep. There are works of this commission that cast doubt on the reality of the events, since in some cases, actors were hired, as in the case of the photograph "Migrant mother" by Dorothea Lange. What is reality ?


View attachment 277993

Just not true. There are many interviews with the Migrant Mother in which she complained that she never earned nor was given compensation for the photographs. Please verify your statements before posting.

 

[Pieter12]

actors were hired, as in the case of the photograph "Migrant mother" by Dorothea Lange.

Same ones who staged the moon landing and JFK's assassination and Elvis' death.

 

[awty]

I've made a couple references to this one, but here, I'll call it out explicitly:

What's the opinion on one of the most famous doctored landscape photos of all time?

https://www.slrlounge.com/wp-conten...-adams-winter-sunrise-sierra-nevada-holly.png

https://focusonphotography.blogspot.com/2008/07/ansel-adams-and-lone-pine-photograph.html

Mr Adams was fantastic at working light and contrasts into a picture to add drama. I'm not a fanboy but can appreciate his talent, especially to do it in a darkroom takes a lot of skill.

 

[removed account4]

since in some cases, actors were hired

the people who were photographed for the FSA WPA images were staged, they were directed, so in that way they were actors, and if they were paid, sure you could go out on a limb and say they were hired (compensated). there was a photographic script they were given certain views to be taken ( I think this link has info on them: https://www.loc.gov/rr/print/coll/fsawr/fsawr.html. ) most of the photographers stayed on script, some did not, like walker evens. non-candid, non-street ( more formal ) portrait photography is a 3 way dance between the person behind the camera, the camera and the subject, is it reality? maybe, IDK though, its directed, its acting, its mediated by the camera.

What is reality ?

not sure what reality is. maybe its when we are awake, but when are we really awake?

 

[Jim Jones]

Photographs are praised for being the most realistic replication of the subject. However, they rarely do so. Much of this is due to things beyond our control. For example, the range of light in the subject is often greater than in prints. Displaying transparencies can reduce this problem, but may be impractical. Many decades ago I usually displayed photographs as projected Kodachrome slides. They may not have realistically replicated the subject, but they were impressive. Then it became practical to set up a darkroom, and B&W prints became my norm. Nature has color: those prints did not. This sometimes required using filters to separate elements in the subject that were easily differentiated by color. Also, prints usually had less contrast. B&W negatives and prints had reduced contrast in the darkest and brightest tones, emphasizing the contrast in the middle tones to restore a resemblance of the subject. We accept this distortion as normal.

Sometimes the purpose of the photographer is not to present a realistic copy of the subject, but to evoke a response that may have little connection to the subject itself. Then the rules may be disregarded: anything goes.

Manipulating photographic images satisfies both of these approaches. It should be minimized in some technical and journalism fields. In realistic photography a good goal may be: "Honor the subject." In some photography, the photo is more about the photographer than any thing else. Then anything goes. Who else cares?

 

[Algo después]

( I think this link has info on them: https://www.loc.gov/rr/print/coll/fsawr/fsawr.html. )

Thanks for sharing this. Very useful info.

Just not true. There are many interviews with the Migrant Mother in which she complained that she never earned nor was given compensation for the photographs. Please verify your statements before posting.

Thanks for your reiteration. Should I wait for someone else to blame me for
state that "reality" is also black and white?

 

[Algo después]

most of the photographers stayed on script, some did not, like walker evens. non-candid, non-street ( more formal ) portrait photography is a 3 way dance between the person behind the camera, the camera and the subject, is it reality? maybe, IDK though, its directed, its acting, its mediated by the camera.

...this is fantastic. Here it might be added: who determines what reality is? Suddenly another figure emerges that is not necessarily the artist: the publisher. In this case, that was Stryker's task. What a difficult task to have to choose and discard the most "real" photos. Maybe it was easy for him, who knows. In any case, he already knew that reality is also can be a construction.


https://www.vintag.es/2017/05/many-photographs-from-great-depression.html

 

[Pieter12]

...this is fantastic. Here it might be added: who determines what reality is? Suddenly another figure emerges that is not necessarily the artist: the publisher. In this case, that was Stryker's task. What a difficult task to have to choose and discard the most "real" photos. Maybe it was easy for him, who knows. In any case, he already knew that reality is also can be a construction.


https://www.vintag.es/2017/05/many-photographs-from-great-depression.html

View attachment 278095

Most magazine photo editors (at least at the time) gave the photographer a list of desired possible images or situations when they assigned a story. And they published what they wanted, not necessarily what the photographer wanted. Some photographers (when they could) withdrew their images when they did not get the layouts they hoped for. So the "truth" of the stories and images is not always objective, then or today.

 

[faberryman]

...this is fantastic. Here it might be added: who determines what reality is? Suddenly another figure emerges that is not necessarily the artist: the publisher. In this case, that was Stryker's task. What a difficult task to have to choose and discard the most "real" photos. Maybe it was easy for him, who knows. In any case, he already knew that reality is also can be a construction.

I wasn’t there but my guess is that Stryker just picked out the images he thought were best. I doubt that the concept of reality as a construction was really forefront in his thoughts. That is the kind of stuff you put in your MFA thesis or your artist statement.

 

[Algo después]

Stryker just picked out the images he thought were best. I doubt that the concept of reality as a construction was really forefront in his thoughts.

It may be, we won't know for sure ... anyway, his mission was never to make a family album, it was a political task so it was hardly an innocent selection or simply in good taste. Politicians (also the media) know very well that they can influence people's opinion with something as simple as an image. On a smaller scale, and in a less critical way, we can get an idea of a remote place that someone visits just by the representations it shows. There is also edition of the "reality". Then there are instagram filters, etc.

 

[removed account4]

There is also edition of the "reality". Then there are instagram filters, etc.

I would venture to state that a photographic image, no matter how it is made, through modern methods or age old methods that are similar,
creates its own reality, and people shouldn't be so hung up on whether it looks like it was "made" because no matter what its made.

 

[Algo después]

Most magazine photo editors (at least at the time) gave the photographer a list of desired possible images or situations when they assigned a story.

I like a lot this phrase: "when they assigned a story" . Is this objective? a construction? here there is already a cut of reality framed by the camera.

 

[Pieter12]

I like a lot this phrase: "when they assigned a story" . Is this objective? a construction? here there is already a cut of reality framed by the camera.

The reality is, most magazines don't accept stories that they haven't assigned, they have an editorial agenda for each issue and assign or pull stories from their archives to make the magazine. Breaking news is usually covered by newspapers, and they also have editorial meetings to determine the content.

 

[Algo después]

I would venture to state that a photographic image, no matter how it is made, through modern methods or age old methods that are similar,
creates its own reality, and people shouldn't be so hung up on whether it looks like it was "made" because no matter what its made.

I agree with this. It must also be reiterated, (I say this after having the SD cards bursting with DNG files) how surprising and beautifully suffered it is to see a negative emerge in your dark room. A thing akin to alchemy or magic. This is an experience. This regardless of what "reality" is in capital letters.

 

[removed account4]

couldn't agree more, its magic alright! its what keeps me doing it. we all need a little magic in our lives..